5 ms·

There is nothing inherently wrong about tightening immigration policy. I don't know the details but there are couple of perfectly understandable reasons why peo

There is nothing inherently wrong about tightening immigration policy. I don't know the details but there are couple of perfectly understandable reasons why people oppose immigration (note that they overlap a bit): 1. Immigrants are disproportionally responsible for criminality. 2. Switzerland is a rich country and the Swiss want to keep the wealth for themselves. But of course, many immigrants have a net positive effect on the country's wealth. 3. Many immigrants come from a very different culture and don't want to adjust to the mainstream culture. 4. Immigrants may form groups isolated from the rest of the society. 5. The Swiss culture is different than the American one. They're not that welcoming to immigrants. They want to keep their culture. I personally understand why they voted not to allow mosques in their towns.

RivieraKid 13y ago
There's also a nice analogy to the startup world. Heard of a culture fit? Immigration policy is similar.
- kkowalczyk 13y ago
  Given that (in aggregate) startups are phenomenally successful, looks like the Swiss made the right decision.
RivieraKid 13y ago
Why the downvote?
- guard-of-terra 13y ago
  I guess it's caused by Compulsive Libertarian Downvote Disorder which is triggered by seeing non-politically-correct claims while not being able to mount compelling arguments against those.
  - Gmo 13y ago
    No, it's because most of his points are not valid regarding the situation of Switzerland and the point of this vote.
  - viseztrance 13y ago
    Debunking falsehoods especially on the internet requires quite a bit more work than the initial (shallow) statements. It's basically a losing battle. But mind you, I wasn't the one who downvoted him.
- eps 13y ago
  Armchair analytics.
  - RivieraKid 13y ago
    Most of the comments here are armchair analytics.
tttp 13y ago
I'm not sure you have enough facts to support your arguments 1) most probably if you take into account other factors (social economics ones), the nationality it's not a major one 2) as you said, the wealth created by migrants can be a net positive effect 3) many immigrants (85%) come from EU 4) almost none "ethnic ghettos" in CH 5) agree it's different. CH has about a 1/3 of its population that are migrants and they are generally welcomed and integrated (the regions that got most migrants rejected the initiative). Beside, there isn't a unified "swiss culture". If you simply look at the languages, they are 3 different ones.
- guard-of-terra 13y ago
  1) Bad social economic factors arise from bringing in a lot of immigrants and paying them "below water level". Also leaving them to their own devices. I don't know if that is the case with Switzerland but there is just so much immigrants you can integrate and so much discount work you can get from them before you begin to rip the social fabric of the country; And this is happening in some countries, they push too hard. So, limiting immigration to some realistic amount seems to be the right thing. Of course this applies less to educated professionals from similar cultures and more to cheap labor.
- RivieraKid 13y ago
  1) Perhaps it's just the poor and unemployed immigrants that cause criminality. But still, you can say that immigration increases unemployment and therefore criminality. 2) That's why it's important who can immigrate. An uneducated family escaping from a poor country? 3) 4) 5) Ok, good points, these were mostly general arguments against immigration. As for the unified culture - I would say that their culture is more unified than in the rest of europe. Languages are not that important.
  - tttp 13y ago
    1) No you can't gerneralise. Immigrants from France and Germany in CH are less criminal (well, technically less arrested ;) than swiss citizen. 2) CH immigration has always been selective, like most countries. The difference was that a few years ago citizen from "rich" eu countries could come without extra barrier. That's what has been voted to be changed. As for the unified culture,I'm swiss and I lived both in CH and other countries in Europe. We have a lot in common within the country, but at least as much that is different. And language is one huge part of a culture, because it frames how you think and defines what books or movies you can access too. X+
Gmo 13y ago
> 1. Immigrants are disproportionally responsible for criminality. As wikipedians would say, citation needed. Besides, the majority of immigration within Switzerland are Europeans (because this law is for quotas about EU immigrants), the majority of which are French and Germans with a good level of qualifications, a frankly not so different culture, and the same language as the Swiss. So it has nothing to do with mosques.
- RivieraKid 13y ago
  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_and_crime http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_and_crime > Besides, the majority of immigration within Switzerland are Europeans (because this law is for quotas about EU immigrants), the majority of which are French and Germans with a good level of qualifications, a frankly not so different culture, and the same language as the Swiss. Ok, that's a good point.
- sampo 13y ago
  > the majority of immigration within Switzerland are Europeans (because this law is for quotas about EU immigrants), the majority of which are French and Germans with a good level of qualifications Citation needed?
  - _delirium 13y ago
    There is some data here: http://www.bfs.admin.ch/bfs/portal/en/index/themen/01/07/blank/key/01/01.html http://www.bfs.admin.ch/bfs/portal/en/index/themen/01/07/bla... The current Swiss population breaks down as: 77% - Swiss citizens 15% - Citizens of EU/EFTA countries 5% - Citizens of European countries not in the EU/EFTA 1% - Citizens of Asian countries 1% - Citizens of American countries 1% - Citizens of African countries (If you move Turkey from "non-EU Europe" to "Asia", then non-EU Europe drops to 4%, and Asia rises to 2%.) By specific nationality, the top sources of immigration are (% of immigrant population in parentheses): 1. Italy (16%) 2. Germany (15%) 3. Portugal (13%) 4. France (6%) 6. Serbia (5%) 7. Turkey (4%) 8. Spain (4%)

RivieraKid 13y ago

There's also a nice analogy to the startup world. Heard of a culture fit? Immigration policy is similar.

kkowalczyk 13y ago
Given that (in aggregate) startups are phenomenally successful, looks like the Swiss made the right decision.

RivieraKid 13y ago

Why the downvote?

guard-of-terra 13y ago
I guess it's caused by Compulsive Libertarian Downvote Disorder which is triggered by seeing non-politically-correct claims while not being able to mount compelling arguments against those.
- Gmo 13y ago
  No, it's because most of his points are not valid regarding the situation of Switzerland and the point of this vote.
- viseztrance 13y ago
  Debunking falsehoods especially on the internet requires quite a bit more work than the initial (shallow) statements. It's basically a losing battle. But mind you, I wasn't the one who downvoted him.
eps 13y ago
Armchair analytics.
- RivieraKid 13y ago
  Most of the comments here are armchair analytics.

tttp 13y ago

I'm not sure you have enough facts to support your arguments 1) most probably if you take into account other factors (social economics ones), the nationality it's not a major one 2) as you said, the wealth created by migrants can be a net positive effect 3) many immigrants (85%) come from EU 4) almost none "ethnic ghettos" in CH 5) agree it's different. CH has about a 1/3 of its population that are migrants and they are generally welcomed and integrated (the regions that got most migrants rejected the initiative). Beside, there isn't a unified "swiss culture". If you simply look at the languages, they are 3 different ones.

guard-of-terra 13y ago
1) Bad social economic factors arise from bringing in a lot of immigrants and paying them "below water level". Also leaving them to their own devices. I don't know if that is the case with Switzerland but there is just so much immigrants you can integrate and so much discount work you can get from them before you begin to rip the social fabric of the country; And this is happening in some countries, they push too hard. So, limiting immigration to some realistic amount seems to be the right thing. Of course this applies less to educated professionals from similar cultures and more to cheap labor.
RivieraKid 13y ago
1) Perhaps it's just the poor and unemployed immigrants that cause criminality. But still, you can say that immigration increases unemployment and therefore criminality. 2) That's why it's important who can immigrate. An uneducated family escaping from a poor country? 3) 4) 5) Ok, good points, these were mostly general arguments against immigration. As for the unified culture - I would say that their culture is more unified than in the rest of europe. Languages are not that important.
- tttp 13y ago
  1) No you can't gerneralise. Immigrants from France and Germany in CH are less criminal (well, technically less arrested ;) than swiss citizen. 2) CH immigration has always been selective, like most countries. The difference was that a few years ago citizen from "rich" eu countries could come without extra barrier. That's what has been voted to be changed. As for the unified culture,I'm swiss and I lived both in CH and other countries in Europe. We have a lot in common within the country, but at least as much that is different. And language is one huge part of a culture, because it frames how you think and defines what books or movies you can access too. X+

Gmo 13y ago

> 1. Immigrants are disproportionally responsible for criminality. As wikipedians would say, citation needed. Besides, the majority of immigration within Switzerland are Europeans (because this law is for quotas about EU immigrants), the majority of which are French and Germans with a good level of qualifications, a frankly not so different culture, and the same language as the Swiss. So it has nothing to do with mosques.

RivieraKid 13y ago
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_and_crime http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_and_crime > Besides, the majority of immigration within Switzerland are Europeans (because this law is for quotas about EU immigrants), the majority of which are French and Germans with a good level of qualifications, a frankly not so different culture, and the same language as the Swiss. Ok, that's a good point.
sampo 13y ago
> the majority of immigration within Switzerland are Europeans (because this law is for quotas about EU immigrants), the majority of which are French and Germans with a good level of qualifications Citation needed?
- _delirium 13y ago
  There is some data here: http://www.bfs.admin.ch/bfs/portal/en/index/themen/01/07/blank/key/01/01.html http://www.bfs.admin.ch/bfs/portal/en/index/themen/01/07/bla... The current Swiss population breaks down as: 77% - Swiss citizens 15% - Citizens of EU/EFTA countries 5% - Citizens of European countries not in the EU/EFTA 1% - Citizens of Asian countries 1% - Citizens of American countries 1% - Citizens of African countries (If you move Turkey from "non-EU Europe" to "Asia", then non-EU Europe drops to 4%, and Asia rises to 2%.) By specific nationality, the top sources of immigration are (% of immigrant population in parentheses): 1. Italy (16%) 2. Germany (15%) 3. Portugal (13%) 4. France (6%) 6. Serbia (5%) 7. Turkey (4%) 8. Spain (4%)