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It seems that Europe is tightening its immigration policies. I would say it makes sense given that previous policies gave rise to some suboptimal dynamics. I

It seems that Europe is tightening its immigration policies. I would say it makes sense given that previous policies gave rise to some suboptimal dynamics. I wonder if they manage to still make holes for qualified specialists.

rmc 13y ago
Half a billion people in the EU have the right to live and work in any of the 27 member states. People from some very poor countries can live and work in very rich countries. That's actually a massive amount of freedom of movement, and dismantling of immigration barriers.
- guard-of-terra 13y ago
  How come UK wants to stop paying immigrants from poor countries unemployement benefits? If you think about it you'll wonder how they managed to pay newly immigrated poor people unemployement benefits in the first place.
  - hackerboos 13y ago
    >If you think about it you'll wonder how they managed to pay newly immigrated poor people unemployement benefits in the first place. And if you research it rather than just think about it you'll know that the UK doesn't just dole out benefits to newly arrived EU migrants.
    - guard-of-terra 13y ago
      As I've never been to UK nor plan to, I would like to hear a digest. If you prove me wrong I'll admit it.
  - seszett 13y ago
    The UK is not part of this, though. The grand-parent said 27, but Shengen area (with free movement) is not the same as EU: The UK and Ireland are not part of it, but Iceland, Norway and Switzerland are (well, not anymore it seems).
    - aristidb 13y ago
      Schengen area is about border control. There definitely is free movement between the UK and other EU states, with exception only for criminals and such IIRC.
    - rmc 13y ago
      Schengen just means you don't have to present your passport at the border. However that differnet from "not requiring a visa". Both UK & Ireland allow any EU citizen to work in their countries without a visa. So you only need to show a passport to enter UK/Ireland, but that's all. You still have free movement of people between (say) UK and Bulgaria.
  - chestnut-tree 13y ago
    "How come UK wants to stop paying immigrants from poor countries unemployement benefits?" EU migrants entering the UK cannot claim unemployment benefit for the first three months of their stay (but they can after that time). The debate is around "benefit tourism" - people travelling to other countries to claim welfare benefits. Whether this is an actual problem or something whipped up by our toxic British press is hard to say (facts rarely come into the discussion as far as the press are concerned). The debate about "benefit tourism" isn't unique to Britain (perhaps the hysterical tone is though). It's a political issue in other European countries too.
    - waps 13y ago
      > The debate is around "benefit tourism" - people travelling to other countries to claim welfare benefits. No it's not. It's about North African immigrants creating completely exclusive communities using violence. Or at least, it is in Brussels. It is about the creation of oppressive communities fraught with crime, sexual inequality, enormous hatred of anyone not entirely like them in the middle of nearly all European countries. Visit Brussels. Make sure to arrive through the "gare du nord", and walk around the building (warning: quite a walk, don't take too much money with you). You will understand in 30 minutes what's going on.
      - guard-of-terra 13y ago
        As someone from Russia who is recently very interesting in the whole immigration debate, I would say that very conflicting news come from EU. Some sources, like you, claim insane crime in immigrant ghettoes, when other sources act like there is no problem. If immigrants have high crime rate and they make a sizable portion of citizens, how come it doesn't reflect in crime statistics? Because those are still low for the EU as far as I know. What's the mechanics behind all that, in short?
        waps 13y ago
        I'd say : follow the money. Without immigrants, the population of the EU would be dropping, and quite quickly. That would destroy Europe, affecting a hell of a lot of politics. None of the people who think like this live in the cities. Well either they live in the very expensive neighbourhoods, the "reserved" neighbourhoods (e.g. the EU commission "reserves" certain houses/apartments only for it's employees), or the countryside (which is more like suburbs than like countryside). On the other hand, there are also people who actually live there. They wouldn't mind the population dropping and the violence, exclusion and crime matters a whole lot more if you can't escape it. Walking around the north station in Brussels with an iPad, for example, is impossible. Walking around alone if you're female, just don't risk it. And of course, the racism charge is used against anyone who isn't happy. Note that racism, by itself, is a crime in Western Europe (this started out as a law against holocaust denial and now includes a hell of a lot more[1]). It's considered part of criminal law, which means that if you're suspected of racism you can be charged without any damages. This tends to happen to people who get in the way of the status-quo politics. In reality 35-45% of the population is extremely against immigration (including nearly all non-recent immigrants), but they're kept out of the political process through charges of racism or accusations of being nazis. [1] Except of course, where convenient. Denying the Armenian genocide is sort-of OK by the socialist parties in Europe, because they want their power over Turkey too.
  - rmc 13y ago
    That's just a right wing lobby group. Lots of countries have that.
guard-of-terra 13y ago
To quote the article: "Those in favour of mass migration says the policy will benefit the Swiss economy" It is kind of interesting that mass migration opponents have a list of reasons while proponents usually wave this one only.
- dageshi 13y ago
  The people who voted against such immigration probably suspect that benefits to the Swiss economy probably doesn't necessarily mean benefits to them, it might mean increased competition, which in effect nullifies that one argument commonly put forward.

rmc 13y ago

Half a billion people in the EU have the right to live and work in any of the 27 member states. People from some very poor countries can live and work in very rich countries. That's actually a massive amount of freedom of movement, and dismantling of immigration barriers.

guard-of-terra 13y ago
How come UK wants to stop paying immigrants from poor countries unemployement benefits? If you think about it you'll wonder how they managed to pay newly immigrated poor people unemployement benefits in the first place.
- hackerboos 13y ago
  >If you think about it you'll wonder how they managed to pay newly immigrated poor people unemployement benefits in the first place. And if you research it rather than just think about it you'll know that the UK doesn't just dole out benefits to newly arrived EU migrants.
  - guard-of-terra 13y ago
    As I've never been to UK nor plan to, I would like to hear a digest. If you prove me wrong I'll admit it.
- seszett 13y ago
  The UK is not part of this, though. The grand-parent said 27, but Shengen area (with free movement) is not the same as EU: The UK and Ireland are not part of it, but Iceland, Norway and Switzerland are (well, not anymore it seems).
  - aristidb 13y ago
    Schengen area is about border control. There definitely is free movement between the UK and other EU states, with exception only for criminals and such IIRC.
  - rmc 13y ago
    Schengen just means you don't have to present your passport at the border. However that differnet from "not requiring a visa". Both UK & Ireland allow any EU citizen to work in their countries without a visa. So you only need to show a passport to enter UK/Ireland, but that's all. You still have free movement of people between (say) UK and Bulgaria.
- chestnut-tree 13y ago
  "How come UK wants to stop paying immigrants from poor countries unemployement benefits?" EU migrants entering the UK cannot claim unemployment benefit for the first three months of their stay (but they can after that time). The debate is around "benefit tourism" - people travelling to other countries to claim welfare benefits. Whether this is an actual problem or something whipped up by our toxic British press is hard to say (facts rarely come into the discussion as far as the press are concerned). The debate about "benefit tourism" isn't unique to Britain (perhaps the hysterical tone is though). It's a political issue in other European countries too.
  - waps 13y ago
    > The debate is around "benefit tourism" - people travelling to other countries to claim welfare benefits. No it's not. It's about North African immigrants creating completely exclusive communities using violence. Or at least, it is in Brussels. It is about the creation of oppressive communities fraught with crime, sexual inequality, enormous hatred of anyone not entirely like them in the middle of nearly all European countries. Visit Brussels. Make sure to arrive through the "gare du nord", and walk around the building (warning: quite a walk, don't take too much money with you). You will understand in 30 minutes what's going on.
    - guard-of-terra 13y ago
      As someone from Russia who is recently very interesting in the whole immigration debate, I would say that very conflicting news come from EU. Some sources, like you, claim insane crime in immigrant ghettoes, when other sources act like there is no problem. If immigrants have high crime rate and they make a sizable portion of citizens, how come it doesn't reflect in crime statistics? Because those are still low for the EU as far as I know. What's the mechanics behind all that, in short?
      - waps 13y ago
        I'd say : follow the money. Without immigrants, the population of the EU would be dropping, and quite quickly. That would destroy Europe, affecting a hell of a lot of politics. None of the people who think like this live in the cities. Well either they live in the very expensive neighbourhoods, the "reserved" neighbourhoods (e.g. the EU commission "reserves" certain houses/apartments only for it's employees), or the countryside (which is more like suburbs than like countryside). On the other hand, there are also people who actually live there. They wouldn't mind the population dropping and the violence, exclusion and crime matters a whole lot more if you can't escape it. Walking around the north station in Brussels with an iPad, for example, is impossible. Walking around alone if you're female, just don't risk it. And of course, the racism charge is used against anyone who isn't happy. Note that racism, by itself, is a crime in Western Europe (this started out as a law against holocaust denial and now includes a hell of a lot more[1]). It's considered part of criminal law, which means that if you're suspected of racism you can be charged without any damages. This tends to happen to people who get in the way of the status-quo politics. In reality 35-45% of the population is extremely against immigration (including nearly all non-recent immigrants), but they're kept out of the political process through charges of racism or accusations of being nazis. [1] Except of course, where convenient. Denying the Armenian genocide is sort-of OK by the socialist parties in Europe, because they want their power over Turkey too.
- rmc 13y ago
  That's just a right wing lobby group. Lots of countries have that.

guard-of-terra 13y ago

To quote the article: "Those in favour of mass migration says the policy will benefit the Swiss economy" It is kind of interesting that mass migration opponents have a list of reasons while proponents usually wave this one only.

dageshi 13y ago
The people who voted against such immigration probably suspect that benefits to the Swiss economy probably doesn't necessarily mean benefits to them, it might mean increased competition, which in effect nullifies that one argument commonly put forward.