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Seems to me the author vividly conveys what she means by "hacker" in the very paragraph you quoted: technologist addiction solving puzzles building thi

by gruseom 13y ago

Seems to me the author vividly conveys what she means by "hacker" in the very paragraph you quoted: technologist addiction solving puzzles building things "victory!" moment impose will on electronics These things are done and felt for their own sake and not as a means to an end, like a paycheck. Perhaps that's the main difference.

jt2190 13y ago
Don't forget: born in childhood (edit: I don't disagree with her other definitions. I am concerned that she's missed some key points of the larger debate, namely: * Should "outsiders" be actively encouraged to join the community, or should the community be insular and inward-focused? * Should those who simply want to make a better living be encouraged to learn about and seek employment in the industry, given how lucrative careers can be?)
- gruseom 13y ago
  That seems uncharitable. "Born in childhood" is not a quality like the others. "A child's sense of play" might be.
- guard-of-terra 13y ago
  We do not know whether hackers can be born in adulthood because we all weren't. Regarding your questions there is an answer that fits hacker mentality perfectly: "Your mileage may vary". Outsiders should try to join the community if they like. Indeed, you can't tell somebody who is "in" the community from the newcomer because in internet people don't wead badges. Everybody should be encouraged to learn, but discouraged from cheating WRT their level and skills.
scott_s 13y ago
I think she also implied that this behavior will be exhibited at a very young age, or not at all. (Which jt2190 also points out below.) She's not the only one to imply this - or outright say it. That always gives me pause, because it does not describe me. My family did not have a computer until I was 16. I figured out HTML on my own, but no programming. I took a programming course in high school, but it was rudimentary, and I did not seek out anymore at home. I don't think it ever occurred to me to try programming at home. I actually am the hacker that I've read others say does not exist: I did not start programming until college. Sure, I can look backwards before I started to program, or even before my family had a computer, and point out behaviors that align with being a "hacker." Despite not being a programmer at all, I was comfortable with computers after my family got one, and could figure out problems me and others had; I got a thrill out of making webpages, much the same kind of thrill I got when I first started to learn how to program. But despite these behaviors, I was not "hacking" until college. I remember freshmen year, all of us computer science majors had a wide variety of experience in programming. A lot of kids had been programming since early teens. By junior year, I did not feel like there was a significant difference between me and them.
- lotharbot 13y ago
  I didn't start to program until college, but I would absolutely describe myself as a math hacker starting in elementary school. It's the almost addictive problem-solving mentality that I associate with hacking, not 1s and 0s on a computer. I think if someone doesn't have that sort of mentality, they won't become a hacker no matter how early they're exposed to code -- and if they do have that mentality, they'll become a hacker of some sort whether or not code is the thing that ultimately holds their interest.
- gruseom 13y ago
  > this behavior will be exhibited at a very young age, or not at all That's so obviously false that I doubt she's saying it. I suspect it's more like: these qualities tend to come up in childhood, so if we want to see more of them, that's where we should focus. Everything about your comment ("I figured out HTML on my own") makes me bet you that had these qualities in spades as a kid long before you had a computer. All this existed before computers, after all. I remember Jerry Weinberg saying that he knew he wanted to devote his life to computers from the day Time Magazine ran a futuristic cover story about them in the late 1930s. Another farm kid, as it happens. He went to college to study computers and found they didn't exist yet, so he majored in physics and bided his time until programming became a thing. I wonder sometimes whether any of this is about childhood per se or the fact that children are more likely to do things out of play, to figure stuff out, see what will happen, and so on. If that's it, then we can dispose of the controversy by agreeing that people who come to programming purely as a career or (god forbid) for status will do worse not if they're too old, but if they're too uncurious.
  - scott_s 13y ago
    What I'm trying to describe is the "by 20, it's too late to make a hacker" sentiment, which I do hear people say. So if I did have these qualities, and we're going to identify them after we've already established that I am a hacker, then it must be true that lots of other people also have these qualities, but did not become hackers. My point: the notion that good hackers must be hacking on, and tinkering with, computers at a young age is probably too simplistic.

by gruseom 13y ago

jt2190 13y ago

Don't forget: born in childhood (edit: I don't disagree with her other definitions. I am concerned that she's missed some key points of the larger debate, namely: * Should "outsiders" be actively encouraged to join the community, or should the community be insular and inward-focused? * Should those who simply want to make a better living be encouraged to learn about and seek employment in the industry, given how lucrative careers can be?)

gruseom 13y ago
That seems uncharitable. "Born in childhood" is not a quality like the others. "A child's sense of play" might be.
guard-of-terra 13y ago
We do not know whether hackers can be born in adulthood because we all weren't. Regarding your questions there is an answer that fits hacker mentality perfectly: "Your mileage may vary". Outsiders should try to join the community if they like. Indeed, you can't tell somebody who is "in" the community from the newcomer because in internet people don't wead badges. Everybody should be encouraged to learn, but discouraged from cheating WRT their level and skills.

scott_s 13y ago

I think she also implied that this behavior will be exhibited at a very young age, or not at all. (Which jt2190 also points out below.) She's not the only one to imply this - or outright say it. That always gives me pause, because it does not describe me. My family did not have a computer until I was 16. I figured out HTML on my own, but no programming. I took a programming course in high school, but it was rudimentary, and I did not seek out anymore at home. I don't think it ever occurred to me to try programming at home. I actually am the hacker that I've read others say does not exist: I did not start programming until college. Sure, I can look backwards before I started to program, or even before my family had a computer, and point out behaviors that align with being a "hacker." Despite not being a programmer at all, I was comfortable with computers after my family got one, and could figure out problems me and others had; I got a thrill out of making webpages, much the same kind of thrill I got when I first started to learn how to program. But despite these behaviors, I was not "hacking" until college. I remember freshmen year, all of us computer science majors had a wide variety of experience in programming. A lot of kids had been programming since early teens. By junior year, I did not feel like there was a significant difference between me and them.

lotharbot 13y ago
I didn't start to program until college, but I would absolutely describe myself as a math hacker starting in elementary school. It's the almost addictive problem-solving mentality that I associate with hacking, not 1s and 0s on a computer. I think if someone doesn't have that sort of mentality, they won't become a hacker no matter how early they're exposed to code -- and if they do have that mentality, they'll become a hacker of some sort whether or not code is the thing that ultimately holds their interest.
gruseom 13y ago
> this behavior will be exhibited at a very young age, or not at all That's so obviously false that I doubt she's saying it. I suspect it's more like: these qualities tend to come up in childhood, so if we want to see more of them, that's where we should focus. Everything about your comment ("I figured out HTML on my own") makes me bet you that had these qualities in spades as a kid long before you had a computer. All this existed before computers, after all. I remember Jerry Weinberg saying that he knew he wanted to devote his life to computers from the day Time Magazine ran a futuristic cover story about them in the late 1930s. Another farm kid, as it happens. He went to college to study computers and found they didn't exist yet, so he majored in physics and bided his time until programming became a thing. I wonder sometimes whether any of this is about childhood per se or the fact that children are more likely to do things out of play, to figure stuff out, see what will happen, and so on. If that's it, then we can dispose of the controversy by agreeing that people who come to programming purely as a career or (god forbid) for status will do worse not if they're too old, but if they're too uncurious.
- scott_s 13y ago
  What I'm trying to describe is the "by 20, it's too late to make a hacker" sentiment, which I do hear people say. So if I did have these qualities, and we're going to identify them after we've already established that I am a hacker, then it must be true that lots of other people also have these qualities, but did not become hackers. My point: the notion that good hackers must be hacking on, and tinkering with, computers at a young age is probably too simplistic.