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I'm not sure I understand what the definition of "hacker" is in this article: > Young women don't magically become technologists at 22. > Neither do young

by jt2190 13y ago

I'm not sure I understand what the definition of "hacker" is in this article: > Young women don't magically become technologists at 22. > Neither do young men. Hackers are born in childhood, > because that's when the addiction to solving the > puzzle or building something kicks in to those who've > experienced that "victory!" moment like I had when I > imposed my will on a couple electronic primates. It seems to imply that people who simply make their living programming computers, and who came to programming when they were older, aren't "hackers". Am I missing something? (Edit: Given that programming careers can be quite lucrative, and that careers in general are now quite long, it makes economic sense that people would want to join in later in their lives. Short of building a time machine to correct past parenting, must these people be permanently excluded from the industry?)

ForHackernews 13y ago
Not all programmers are hackers. Not all hackers are programmers. http://www.catb.org/jargon/html/H/hacker.html http://www.catb.org/jargon/html/H/hacker.html
hrkristian 13y ago
You have to allow for exceptions. Talking about apples is not denying the existence of oranges. It is just very hard for a 20+ to become interested in something that is not related to something prominent in their life thus far. A boy whose life has been about cars and football is not very likely to pick up an interest in butterflies.
Crake 13y ago
I don't think that's what she's saying. Note that she defines the personality type as an interest in "solving the puzzle or building something." Even if you don't have access to computers to tinker with, the sort of person who tends to become good at programming is the type who has always been innately curious and tinkering with something.
gruseom 13y ago
Seems to me the author vividly conveys what she means by "hacker" in the very paragraph you quoted: technologist addiction solving puzzles building things "victory!" moment impose will on electronics These things are done and felt for their own sake and not as a means to an end, like a paycheck. Perhaps that's the main difference.
- jt2190 13y ago
  Don't forget: born in childhood (edit: I don't disagree with her other definitions. I am concerned that she's missed some key points of the larger debate, namely: * Should "outsiders" be actively encouraged to join the community, or should the community be insular and inward-focused? * Should those who simply want to make a better living be encouraged to learn about and seek employment in the industry, given how lucrative careers can be?)
  - gruseom 13y ago
    That seems uncharitable. "Born in childhood" is not a quality like the others. "A child's sense of play" might be.
  - guard-of-terra 13y ago
    We do not know whether hackers can be born in adulthood because we all weren't. Regarding your questions there is an answer that fits hacker mentality perfectly: "Your mileage may vary". Outsiders should try to join the community if they like. Indeed, you can't tell somebody who is "in" the community from the newcomer because in internet people don't wead badges. Everybody should be encouraged to learn, but discouraged from cheating WRT their level and skills.
- scott_s 13y ago
  I think she also implied that this behavior will be exhibited at a very young age, or not at all. (Which jt2190 also points out below.) She's not the only one to imply this - or outright say it. That always gives me pause, because it does not describe me. My family did not have a computer until I was 16. I figured out HTML on my own, but no programming. I took a programming course in high school, but it was rudimentary, and I did not seek out anymore at home. I don't think it ever occurred to me to try programming at home. I actually am the hacker that I've read others say does not exist: I did not start programming until college. Sure, I can look backwards before I started to program, or even before my family had a computer, and point out behaviors that align with being a "hacker." Despite not being a programmer at all, I was comfortable with computers after my family got one, and could figure out problems me and others had; I got a thrill out of making webpages, much the same kind of thrill I got when I first started to learn how to program. But despite these behaviors, I was not "hacking" until college. I remember freshmen year, all of us computer science majors had a wide variety of experience in programming. A lot of kids had been programming since early teens. By junior year, I did not feel like there was a significant difference between me and them.
InclinedPlane 13y ago
You can become a "hacker" at an older age, it's just a more difficult path. Most hackers have spent their teenage years building up various technical skills and are intimately familiar with learning new systems and troubleshooting systems. That doesn't mean they have necessarily been programming since they were 12 but it does mean they've been "solving or building". Similarly, one would be surprised to see a high caliber athlete begin as an adult. Typically such folks have embarked on a long program of athletics and sports from the age of puberty, or earlier, onward.
Dewie 13y ago
Other than the seemingly obvious benefit that one gets by starting earlier in life with something, it seems to be that it is a decently widespread attitude that if you didn't start programming when you were 12 or whatever, by some mystical voice that called you towards the terminal, than you will never be a good/great programmer (or "hacker"). Or, that you just aren't passionate enough, or else you would have inevitably found yourself tinkering with computers or whatever. So people like me who started in university (and who never really tinkered with anything other than Lego, when I was like 7) are doomed to a life of sub-par mediocrity, which is kind of disheartening considering that this looks to be what I want to do as a whole career, i.e. a very large part of my life. But I guess I have to get used to a lifetime of being the inferior programmer who gets all the scraps, or just make a mess which the 10X programmers, or rockstar programmers, or whatever they will be called, will have to clean up after.
- aaronem 13y ago
  There's a big difference between a professional developer and a "rockstar programmer"; the latter may safely be assumed to have no sense of elegance, and to utter all sorts of atrocities in the process of building something that barely works as fast as possible and then moving on to the next thing, which is why I've found it quite feasible to make a living cleaning up after them. I see no reason why you can't do likewise; it's a more sedate professional life, but also a more satisfying one -- your "rockstar programmers" move on quickly because they don't dare to stand still for fear of their mistakes catching up with them, while the guy who solves those problems is always well favored. Don't be fooled by propagandists of ESR's stripe or by bizarre little hothouses like the Silicon Valley startup scene! What counts in the software industry at large is not whether you call yourself a "rockstar" or a "hacker" or whatever else you like, but instead whether you are a professional with solid engineering chops. Concentrate on developing your professionalism and your professional skills, and you won't go wrong. All else is fashion. (Don't equate "rockstar programmer" with "hacker", either. The former tend to view the latter as outdated Emacs-using neckbeards with no relevance to the real world; the latter tend to view the former as tiresome, barely competent children who wouldn't know good code or good tooling if they broke their nose on it. Which opinion is accurate, if any, is left as an exercise for the reader..)
pekk 13y ago
You are equivocating falsely been "hacker" and "the industry"

by jt2190 13y ago

ForHackernews 13y ago

Not all programmers are hackers. Not all hackers are programmers. http://www.catb.org/jargon/html/H/hacker.html http://www.catb.org/jargon/html/H/hacker.html

hrkristian 13y ago

You have to allow for exceptions. Talking about apples is not denying the existence of oranges. It is just very hard for a 20+ to become interested in something that is not related to something prominent in their life thus far. A boy whose life has been about cars and football is not very likely to pick up an interest in butterflies.

Crake 13y ago

I don't think that's what she's saying. Note that she defines the personality type as an interest in "solving the puzzle or building something." Even if you don't have access to computers to tinker with, the sort of person who tends to become good at programming is the type who has always been innately curious and tinkering with something.

gruseom 13y ago

Seems to me the author vividly conveys what she means by "hacker" in the very paragraph you quoted: technologist addiction solving puzzles building things "victory!" moment impose will on electronics These things are done and felt for their own sake and not as a means to an end, like a paycheck. Perhaps that's the main difference.

jt2190 13y ago
Don't forget: born in childhood (edit: I don't disagree with her other definitions. I am concerned that she's missed some key points of the larger debate, namely: * Should "outsiders" be actively encouraged to join the community, or should the community be insular and inward-focused? * Should those who simply want to make a better living be encouraged to learn about and seek employment in the industry, given how lucrative careers can be?)
- gruseom 13y ago
  That seems uncharitable. "Born in childhood" is not a quality like the others. "A child's sense of play" might be.
- guard-of-terra 13y ago
  We do not know whether hackers can be born in adulthood because we all weren't. Regarding your questions there is an answer that fits hacker mentality perfectly: "Your mileage may vary". Outsiders should try to join the community if they like. Indeed, you can't tell somebody who is "in" the community from the newcomer because in internet people don't wead badges. Everybody should be encouraged to learn, but discouraged from cheating WRT their level and skills.
scott_s 13y ago
I think she also implied that this behavior will be exhibited at a very young age, or not at all. (Which jt2190 also points out below.) She's not the only one to imply this - or outright say it. That always gives me pause, because it does not describe me. My family did not have a computer until I was 16. I figured out HTML on my own, but no programming. I took a programming course in high school, but it was rudimentary, and I did not seek out anymore at home. I don't think it ever occurred to me to try programming at home. I actually am the hacker that I've read others say does not exist: I did not start programming until college. Sure, I can look backwards before I started to program, or even before my family had a computer, and point out behaviors that align with being a "hacker." Despite not being a programmer at all, I was comfortable with computers after my family got one, and could figure out problems me and others had; I got a thrill out of making webpages, much the same kind of thrill I got when I first started to learn how to program. But despite these behaviors, I was not "hacking" until college. I remember freshmen year, all of us computer science majors had a wide variety of experience in programming. A lot of kids had been programming since early teens. By junior year, I did not feel like there was a significant difference between me and them.

InclinedPlane 13y ago

You can become a "hacker" at an older age, it's just a more difficult path. Most hackers have spent their teenage years building up various technical skills and are intimately familiar with learning new systems and troubleshooting systems. That doesn't mean they have necessarily been programming since they were 12 but it does mean they've been "solving or building". Similarly, one would be surprised to see a high caliber athlete begin as an adult. Typically such folks have embarked on a long program of athletics and sports from the age of puberty, or earlier, onward.

Dewie 13y ago

Other than the seemingly obvious benefit that one gets by starting earlier in life with something, it seems to be that it is a decently widespread attitude that if you didn't start programming when you were 12 or whatever, by some mystical voice that called you towards the terminal, than you will never be a good/great programmer (or "hacker"). Or, that you just aren't passionate enough, or else you would have inevitably found yourself tinkering with computers or whatever. So people like me who started in university (and who never really tinkered with anything other than Lego, when I was like 7) are doomed to a life of sub-par mediocrity, which is kind of disheartening considering that this looks to be what I want to do as a whole career, i.e. a very large part of my life. But I guess I have to get used to a lifetime of being the inferior programmer who gets all the scraps, or just make a mess which the 10X programmers, or rockstar programmers, or whatever they will be called, will have to clean up after.

aaronem 13y ago
There's a big difference between a professional developer and a "rockstar programmer"; the latter may safely be assumed to have no sense of elegance, and to utter all sorts of atrocities in the process of building something that barely works as fast as possible and then moving on to the next thing, which is why I've found it quite feasible to make a living cleaning up after them. I see no reason why you can't do likewise; it's a more sedate professional life, but also a more satisfying one -- your "rockstar programmers" move on quickly because they don't dare to stand still for fear of their mistakes catching up with them, while the guy who solves those problems is always well favored. Don't be fooled by propagandists of ESR's stripe or by bizarre little hothouses like the Silicon Valley startup scene! What counts in the software industry at large is not whether you call yourself a "rockstar" or a "hacker" or whatever else you like, but instead whether you are a professional with solid engineering chops. Concentrate on developing your professionalism and your professional skills, and you won't go wrong. All else is fashion. (Don't equate "rockstar programmer" with "hacker", either. The former tend to view the latter as outdated Emacs-using neckbeards with no relevance to the real world; the latter tend to view the former as tiresome, barely competent children who wouldn't know good code or good tooling if they broke their nose on it. Which opinion is accurate, if any, is left as an exercise for the reader..)

pekk 13y ago

You are equivocating falsely been "hacker" and "the industry"