6 ms·

Start with a young woman who's already formed her identity. Dump her in a situation that operates on different social scripts than she's accustomed to, fu

by mtrimpe 13y ago

Start with a young woman who's already formed her identity. Dump her in a situation that operates on different social scripts than she's accustomed to, full of people talking about a subject she doesn't yet understand. Then tell her the community is hostile toward women and therefore doesn't have enough of them, all while showing her off like a prize poodle so you can feel good about recruiting a female. This is a recipe for failure. Brilliant writing. I for one am loving it. The article does have me somewhat torn though. On the one hand the stream-of-consciousness rantyness so accurately describes what's actually going on and it's beautiful to see it written down so poignantly. On the other hand it has a pretty strong "I got mine" component to it, where she laments the negative effects these changes have had on her personally but doesn't acknowledge that while she's in a position she likes that doesn't at all mean it is, or would be, like that for many others. The risk here is that sexism often manifests itself as 'all good until it's not,' in that the small things are always easily brushed off and if you're lucky to run in circles where you don't experience the bad stuff you tend to think it's all way overblown... until you get to a point where something happens that can't be brushed off and you realize you aren't actually as supported as you thought you were, at which point all minor transgressions are no longer just brushed off but are rather interpreted as 'still a transgression, even if only minor.'

pdonis 13y ago
Your quote is a good one, but I like this one even better: I came to the Open Source world because I liked being part of a community where my ideas, my skills and my experience mattered, not my boobs. That's changed, and it's changed at the hands of the people who say they want a community where ideas, skills and experience matter more than boobs. I don't at all see her failing to acknowledge that she was fortunate--she had that community, at least for a while, and she explicitly says that others who came later did not. And she makes a number of good practical suggestions for improving the situation.
- HedgeMage 13y ago
  Exactly my point. I had it pretty good...way better than newbie women today have it. I'd like us to give them the advantages I had! Ironically, this means in many ways doing the opposite of what many of the people calling themselves feminists demand.
- mtrimpe 13y ago
  The thing is though that she is in a very rare, privileged position. She liked her community, fit in well, felt protected and cared for, wasn't troubled by the gender ratio and all in all was just happy with her situation. For a very large amount of women that is unfortunately not the case nowadays and unfortunately her situation is not typical in the slightest and I didn't see much actionable advice to improve on that. It's also important to note that it seems the people she respected are separated from today's youth by almost two generations: I've never had a problem with old-school hackers. These guys treat me like one of them, rather than "the woman in the group", and many are old enough to remember when they worked on teams that were about one third women, and no one thought that strange. Of course, the key word here is "old" (sorry guys). Most of the programmers I like are closer to my father's age than mine. Ever since that generation the gender gap has been widening and she's now witnessing attempts to correct that and she doesn't like what she sees. She doesn't like the exclusion of her son, the message it sends to him about women in tech (and thus herself) and most of all the fact that gender has now become a 'thing.' And I can totally relate that for her it must be painful indeed and that is her voice and she totally deserves it. Where we would go wrong is if we took this as the right approach, if we started basing best practices from this or worse: if we would use it to belittle the work of everyone who is trying to improve the situation.
  - gruseom 13y ago
    To say that a 12-year-old farm girl was in a "privileged position" with respect to computers strikes me as absurd.
    - mtrimpe 13y ago
      I'm not saying that she started from a privileged position, just that she had/has one now.
  - pdonis 13y ago
    nowadays Exactly: it isn't the case now, but it was the case before. Why is that? if we would use it to belittle the work of everyone who is trying to improve the situation But the whole point is that "trying to improve the situation" by making a huge fuss about "women in tech" is counterproductive; it makes the situation worse, not better. To the extent that there is a "right" approach, IMO it is to not fuss about anything except what each individual child is interested in. The moment you start thinking "I want more girls to do X" or "I think more boys should do Y", you've already gone wrong. Thinking of people as members of groups instead of unique individuals is what caused the problem in the first place; that kind of thinking is not going to fix it.
Crake 13y ago
>On the other hand it has a pretty strong "I got mine" component to it, where she laments the negative effects these changes have had on her personally but doesn't acknowledge that while she's in a position she likes that doesn't at all mean it is, or would be, like that for many others. These special ed for women programming events are harmful to all women, not just women who already program. You can't de-emphasize gender by putting more emphasis on it...
- mtrimpe 13y ago
  I don't think either of us is capable of making definitive statements on the harm of women-only education programs, so I'll stay out of that. I do believe however that it's completely and utterly impossible to improve gender dynamics without putting emphasis on it. Using the (un)conscious (in)competence learning model [1] as a reference what you're saying is essentially that we should just go from unconscious incompetence straight to unconscious competence without doing that whole 'conscious' step, but that's just not a realistic option. To achieve mastery or improvement in anything it needs to, at least temporarily, become conscious. And yes, that will indeed be uncomfortable at first, but I really don't believe we can get there without it. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_stages_of_competence https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_stages_of_competence
  - Crake 13y ago
    >I don't think either of us is capable of making definitive statements on the harm of women-only education programs Well, it's pretty much a given that they're increasing sex based discrimination in the world. Both as a primary effect ("we only take people with vaginas") as well as a significant secondary effect ("wait, so I can't go because I'm a boy?"). >I do believe however that it's completely and utterly impossible to improve gender dynamics without putting emphasis on it. It's a free country, so you're free to believe that. Just acknowledge that you're an advocate for sex-based discrimination. Incidentally, this makes you a sexist.
    - mtrimpe 13y ago
      > Incidentally, this makes you a sexist. Given that sexist isn't a binary thing I'm perfectly willing to concede that to some degree and in some ways I am indeed a sexist. Heck, I'm bisexual and to some degree I'm a homophobe. I don't like it, I'm not proud of it, it definitely doesn't work in my favour and I'm actively working on it, but I still am. And so are you and that's OK. As long as bit by bit we're all getting better.

by mtrimpe 13y ago

pdonis 13y ago

Your quote is a good one, but I like this one even better: I came to the Open Source world because I liked being part of a community where my ideas, my skills and my experience mattered, not my boobs. That's changed, and it's changed at the hands of the people who say they want a community where ideas, skills and experience matter more than boobs. I don't at all see her failing to acknowledge that she was fortunate--she had that community, at least for a while, and she explicitly says that others who came later did not. And she makes a number of good practical suggestions for improving the situation.

HedgeMage 13y ago
Exactly my point. I had it pretty good...way better than newbie women today have it. I'd like us to give them the advantages I had! Ironically, this means in many ways doing the opposite of what many of the people calling themselves feminists demand.
mtrimpe 13y ago
The thing is though that she is in a very rare, privileged position. She liked her community, fit in well, felt protected and cared for, wasn't troubled by the gender ratio and all in all was just happy with her situation. For a very large amount of women that is unfortunately not the case nowadays and unfortunately her situation is not typical in the slightest and I didn't see much actionable advice to improve on that. It's also important to note that it seems the people she respected are separated from today's youth by almost two generations: I've never had a problem with old-school hackers. These guys treat me like one of them, rather than "the woman in the group", and many are old enough to remember when they worked on teams that were about one third women, and no one thought that strange. Of course, the key word here is "old" (sorry guys). Most of the programmers I like are closer to my father's age than mine. Ever since that generation the gender gap has been widening and she's now witnessing attempts to correct that and she doesn't like what she sees. She doesn't like the exclusion of her son, the message it sends to him about women in tech (and thus herself) and most of all the fact that gender has now become a 'thing.' And I can totally relate that for her it must be painful indeed and that is her voice and she totally deserves it. Where we would go wrong is if we took this as the right approach, if we started basing best practices from this or worse: if we would use it to belittle the work of everyone who is trying to improve the situation.
- gruseom 13y ago
  To say that a 12-year-old farm girl was in a "privileged position" with respect to computers strikes me as absurd.
  - mtrimpe 13y ago
    I'm not saying that she started from a privileged position, just that she had/has one now.
- pdonis 13y ago
  nowadays Exactly: it isn't the case now, but it was the case before. Why is that? if we would use it to belittle the work of everyone who is trying to improve the situation But the whole point is that "trying to improve the situation" by making a huge fuss about "women in tech" is counterproductive; it makes the situation worse, not better. To the extent that there is a "right" approach, IMO it is to not fuss about anything except what each individual child is interested in. The moment you start thinking "I want more girls to do X" or "I think more boys should do Y", you've already gone wrong. Thinking of people as members of groups instead of unique individuals is what caused the problem in the first place; that kind of thinking is not going to fix it.

Crake 13y ago

>On the other hand it has a pretty strong "I got mine" component to it, where she laments the negative effects these changes have had on her personally but doesn't acknowledge that while she's in a position she likes that doesn't at all mean it is, or would be, like that for many others. These special ed for women programming events are harmful to all women, not just women who already program. You can't de-emphasize gender by putting more emphasis on it...

mtrimpe 13y ago
I don't think either of us is capable of making definitive statements on the harm of women-only education programs, so I'll stay out of that. I do believe however that it's completely and utterly impossible to improve gender dynamics without putting emphasis on it. Using the (un)conscious (in)competence learning model [1] as a reference what you're saying is essentially that we should just go from unconscious incompetence straight to unconscious competence without doing that whole 'conscious' step, but that's just not a realistic option. To achieve mastery or improvement in anything it needs to, at least temporarily, become conscious. And yes, that will indeed be uncomfortable at first, but I really don't believe we can get there without it. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_stages_of_competence https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_stages_of_competence
- Crake 13y ago
  >I don't think either of us is capable of making definitive statements on the harm of women-only education programs Well, it's pretty much a given that they're increasing sex based discrimination in the world. Both as a primary effect ("we only take people with vaginas") as well as a significant secondary effect ("wait, so I can't go because I'm a boy?"). >I do believe however that it's completely and utterly impossible to improve gender dynamics without putting emphasis on it. It's a free country, so you're free to believe that. Just acknowledge that you're an advocate for sex-based discrimination. Incidentally, this makes you a sexist.
  - mtrimpe 13y ago
    > Incidentally, this makes you a sexist. Given that sexist isn't a binary thing I'm perfectly willing to concede that to some degree and in some ways I am indeed a sexist. Heck, I'm bisexual and to some degree I'm a homophobe. I don't like it, I'm not proud of it, it definitely doesn't work in my favour and I'm actively working on it, but I still am. And so are you and that's OK. As long as bit by bit we're all getting better.