8 ms·

The day I knew things were in trouble was at a party in San Francisco (fall 2000). A recruiter for a "hot new start up" was trying to hire my friend, a history

by sgoraya 17y ago

The day I knew things were in trouble was at a party in San Francisco (fall 2000). A recruiter for a "hot new start up" was trying to hire my friend, a history major, as a programmer that did not have to program, guaranteeing that he would make "75k" starting. If he hit his recruitment numbers, a big bonus was in store. He may have been drunk but was sober enough to give my buddy a business card and rough directions to the office. One of my favorite stories from those days.

silentbicycle 17y ago
As an aside - Just because someone is a history major, it doesn't mean they can't program. (Given how many things seem to be invented, then forgotten, then recreated from scratch and shown off as the new hot breakthrough every few years, the field could benefit from caring more about its history.)
- jodrellblank 17y ago
  "Programmer-archaeologist" (credit: Vernor Vinge)
- Locke1689 17y ago
  The problem with that is exactly as Peter Norvig states: learn programming in ten years[1]. I would not argue that some great programmers have never had any formal training. But they worked hard. Really hard. For a long time. To believe that someone who has never touched a programming language before is ready for a developer job after a couple weeks, a couple months, or even as much as a year is just ridiculous. When CS grads can't even program for years after graduation, the solution is not to bring in people with even less training. [1]http://norvig.com/21-days.html http://norvig.com/21-days.html
  - silentbicycle 17y ago
    While I'm just one data point, I was a history major, and I've been programming since I was six. I already knew C, C++* , Perl, Python, and small bits of other stuff, and majoring in CS to learn Java didn't seem appealing. I majored in history (with a focus on history of science and medicine) and continued teaching myself on the side. While majoring in CS correlates with previous programming experience, it isn't an absolute indicator. College is probably too late to learn the fundamental techniques and mindset of programming, anyway. * Inasmuch as anybody can really know C++...
    - donaq 17y ago
      Huh. I first learned programming as an undergrad. Why do you think it is too late? [Edit] Anyway, I think that depends on whether said CS major applied himself in college, don't you? I do have friends who graduated out of CS (well, actually we were in CE, but it's close enough) without knowing, or later forgetting, the difference between a class and a function (true story, that. he asked me that question about a year after working in the industry as a "consultant". the bugger works in a big IT consulting firm you've probably heard of). On the other hand, I discovered programming in university, got interested, and kept pushing. I don't claim to be a programming god or anything, but I do at least know how to do fizzbuzz. :) It also depends on what sort of programming you're doing. If you're talking about typical web apps, then yes, I would agree with you that experience rules. Knowledge of the tools used in that trade are more important than anything a CS course could teach you. However, let's say you do crypto, or write 3D animation software, or any serious number-crunching/algorithmic app. That's an entirely different ball game. I'm sure there are hackers out there who are autodidacts in advanced algorithms, but CS training helps. Should have made this shorter. In summary, it's never too late and formal CS training helps (if you have interest).
      - silentbicycle 17y ago
        It's not impossible - many older hackers learned to program in college because computers were inaccessible to the public - but the people who haven't tried to learn on their own are years behind, and (perhaps worse) less curious/motivated/used to teaching themselves.
      - Locke1689 17y ago
        However, let's say you do crypto, or write 3D animation software, or any serious number-crunching/algorithmic app. That's an entirely different ball game. I'm sure there are hackers out there who are autodidacts in advanced algorithms, but CS training helps. Hmmm, I got nothing. That was perfectly said; I agree completely. I am actually a huge proponent of a CS degree simply for the algorithms and data structures courses. You don't want to know how many times I have seen people doing linear search on a large set of sorted data because they were never paying attention when they got taught binary search. I am actually a CS/physics major, so I would say that a degree is extremely useful for many of the things that I've seen. One of my projects was writing an elementary OpenGL physics engine that offloaded most of its processing to the graphics card. I can't tell you how much my computer architecture and physics modeling courses helped with this.
  - Locke1689 17y ago
    I've been programming since I was six Same here. I would definitely count you as one of the people who worked really hard for a long time. That was my main point -- if you love programming and have an interest in it, then you will develop those ten years of experience easily. However, most people have nowhere near that amount of experience, including CS majors. The one insurance point that a CS degree gives you is that you've been exposed to programming for at least 4 years. In fact, coming out of college, I would put self-trained programmers (like you and me), regardless of degree, above any CS major who just started programming in college. I think CS teaches you a lot of useful things (I regret nothing from my CS theory courses), but when it comes to actually developing applications, experience rules all.
nir 17y ago
There's a good chance the company the recruiter was working for would actually hire your friend. Many companies were under pressure to increase their staff and show "growth" to their investors. I was working for a company with a super-talented team of about 20-30 people, which suddenly ballooned to ~100, many of whom simply had nothing to do.

by sgoraya 17y ago

silentbicycle 17y ago

As an aside - Just because someone is a history major, it doesn't mean they can't program. (Given how many things seem to be invented, then forgotten, then recreated from scratch and shown off as the new hot breakthrough every few years, the field could benefit from caring more about its history.)

jodrellblank 17y ago
"Programmer-archaeologist" (credit: Vernor Vinge)
Locke1689 17y ago
The problem with that is exactly as Peter Norvig states: learn programming in ten years[1]. I would not argue that some great programmers have never had any formal training. But they worked hard. Really hard. For a long time. To believe that someone who has never touched a programming language before is ready for a developer job after a couple weeks, a couple months, or even as much as a year is just ridiculous. When CS grads can't even program for years after graduation, the solution is not to bring in people with even less training. [1]http://norvig.com/21-days.html http://norvig.com/21-days.html
- silentbicycle 17y ago
  While I'm just one data point, I was a history major, and I've been programming since I was six. I already knew C, C++* , Perl, Python, and small bits of other stuff, and majoring in CS to learn Java didn't seem appealing. I majored in history (with a focus on history of science and medicine) and continued teaching myself on the side. While majoring in CS correlates with previous programming experience, it isn't an absolute indicator. College is probably too late to learn the fundamental techniques and mindset of programming, anyway. * Inasmuch as anybody can really know C++...
  - donaq 17y ago
    Huh. I first learned programming as an undergrad. Why do you think it is too late? [Edit] Anyway, I think that depends on whether said CS major applied himself in college, don't you? I do have friends who graduated out of CS (well, actually we were in CE, but it's close enough) without knowing, or later forgetting, the difference between a class and a function (true story, that. he asked me that question about a year after working in the industry as a "consultant". the bugger works in a big IT consulting firm you've probably heard of). On the other hand, I discovered programming in university, got interested, and kept pushing. I don't claim to be a programming god or anything, but I do at least know how to do fizzbuzz. :) It also depends on what sort of programming you're doing. If you're talking about typical web apps, then yes, I would agree with you that experience rules. Knowledge of the tools used in that trade are more important than anything a CS course could teach you. However, let's say you do crypto, or write 3D animation software, or any serious number-crunching/algorithmic app. That's an entirely different ball game. I'm sure there are hackers out there who are autodidacts in advanced algorithms, but CS training helps. Should have made this shorter. In summary, it's never too late and formal CS training helps (if you have interest).
    - silentbicycle 17y ago
      It's not impossible - many older hackers learned to program in college because computers were inaccessible to the public - but the people who haven't tried to learn on their own are years behind, and (perhaps worse) less curious/motivated/used to teaching themselves.
    - Locke1689 17y ago
      However, let's say you do crypto, or write 3D animation software, or any serious number-crunching/algorithmic app. That's an entirely different ball game. I'm sure there are hackers out there who are autodidacts in advanced algorithms, but CS training helps. Hmmm, I got nothing. That was perfectly said; I agree completely. I am actually a huge proponent of a CS degree simply for the algorithms and data structures courses. You don't want to know how many times I have seen people doing linear search on a large set of sorted data because they were never paying attention when they got taught binary search. I am actually a CS/physics major, so I would say that a degree is extremely useful for many of the things that I've seen. One of my projects was writing an elementary OpenGL physics engine that offloaded most of its processing to the graphics card. I can't tell you how much my computer architecture and physics modeling courses helped with this.
- Locke1689 17y ago
  I've been programming since I was six Same here. I would definitely count you as one of the people who worked really hard for a long time. That was my main point -- if you love programming and have an interest in it, then you will develop those ten years of experience easily. However, most people have nowhere near that amount of experience, including CS majors. The one insurance point that a CS degree gives you is that you've been exposed to programming for at least 4 years. In fact, coming out of college, I would put self-trained programmers (like you and me), regardless of degree, above any CS major who just started programming in college. I think CS teaches you a lot of useful things (I regret nothing from my CS theory courses), but when it comes to actually developing applications, experience rules all.

nir 17y ago

There's a good chance the company the recruiter was working for would actually hire your friend. Many companies were under pressure to increase their staff and show "growth" to their investors. I was working for a company with a super-talented team of about 20-30 people, which suddenly ballooned to ~100, many of whom simply had nothing to do.