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This whole thing is nuts. > Maybe in the future I can figure out how to keep my big > mouth shut and let women continue to wear their Daisy > Dukes with

This whole thing is nuts. > Maybe in the future I can figure out how to keep my big > mouth shut and let women continue to wear their Daisy > Dukes with ass cleavage hanging out the bottom etc. > while they loudly proclaim themselves helpless victims > and pawns in a world where only men have power and > while they equally loudly proclaim that all men are > unrestrained asshats who can't keep their eyes, words, > or hands to themselves. Good thing it's light on the hyperbole. The author seems to think herself the arbiter of sexual appropriateness. Cross the line, show an ankle, and you have what's coming to you. Men and women should have the same dress code. > One of the things I get strongly criticized for saying > is that if you are the target of unwanted male > attention, it is in your best interest to dress > conservatively and make sure no one can construe your > manner of dress or demeanor as provocative or inviting > such attention. So, be powerless?

seanhandley 13y ago
She's being pragmatic. And I respect her for that.
mwfunk 13y ago
That's a pretty colossal misinterpretation of what was written, and the reason why she put so many caveats and explanations in there (which were conveniently ignored).
- batiudrami 13y ago
  What she is saying, is that women should dress conservatively (presumably for their entire life, or at least for the entire time that they do not want to have sex with any man who feels like it) so that when the time comes that they get raped, people are more likely to look favourably upon them, rather than on the rapist. That is absolutely nuts. Not to mention the fact that studies show that there is no correlation between what a woman is wearing and her likelihood of being sexually assaulted. So dressing conservatively won't even help avoid bring raped, but it means that people might side with you afterwards?
  - astrange 13y ago
    > Not to mention the fact that studies show that there is no correlation between what a woman is wearing and her likelihood of being sexually assaulted. Could you link these studies, for the public interest?
    - batiudrami 13y ago
      I'll have to dig them up, I was linked them a few years back (when I was on the other side of this argument, actually). edit: This interesting part from the paper I was linked: >While people perceive dress to have an impact on who is assaulted, studies of rapists suggest that victim attire is not a significant factor. Instead, rapists look for signs of passiveness and submissiveness, which, studies suggest, are more likely to coincide with more body-concealing clothing. (140) In a study to test whether males could determine whether women were high or low in passiveness and submissiveness, Richards and her colleagues found that men, using only nonverbal appearance cues, could accurately assess which women were passive and submissive versus those who were dominant and assertive. (141) Clothing was one of the key cues: "Those females high in passivity and submissiveness (i.e., those at greatest risk for victimization) wore noticeably more body-concealing clothing (i.e., high necklines, long pants and sleeves, multiple layers)." (142) This suggests that men equate body-concealing clothing with passive and submissive qualities, which are qualities that rapists look for in victims. Thus, those who wore provocative clothes would not be viewed as passive or submissive, and would be less likely to be victims of assault. http://scholarship.law.duke.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1109&context=djglp http://scholarship.law.duke.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=...
      - Mz 13y ago
        Please note that I also talked about being less warm and friendly -- i.e. behavioral changes, not just clothing -- and the piece is primarily about workplace or professional issues between the sexes, not sexual assault. My rant was inspired by a discussion of a workplace issue where it was not clear cut if the man was "behaving badly" or not but it was clear that the woman wanted him to behave differently towards her. I was roundly criticized for suggesting that dressing more conservatively for a time in response to the issue might help convey a lack of romantic interest in the man without being confrontational. I was told how she dressed at work had absolutely nothing to do with how men at work treated her, the man was merely a creep, etc. We only knew her side of the story. Perhaps he was a creep. Perhaps not. Saying "it's all his fault, he is merely a creep!" is a) jumping to conclusions without knowing both sides of the story and b) pretty disempowering for the woman. If he is merely a creep and the things the woman does are irrelevant, that leaves you with what? Quit your job or put up with unwanted attentions? Not a great set of choices if, like most people, you need your paycheck. I am proposing that dress and behavior can influence how men treat a woman and if you are a woman who is serious about having a career, you should take some responsibility for your half of it and not just bitch about how all men are led around by their pecker and there is nothing a woman can do about it. I did work for a Fortune 500 company for over 5 years. I did deal (very diplomatically) with unwanted male attention on the job. I have also dealt with that in other professional situations. This is not just someone blowing smoke based on zero experience or research. As a woman who (somewhat to my bafflement) comes across as a LOT more aggressive than I wish I did, I assure you that a woman who reads as super aggressive on the job is doing herself no favors. Female passivity is pretty expected in most social settings. Being too aggressive gets you all kinds of attention of the wrong sort and does not help your career. I have also been sexually assaulted (as a child) and have read a lot about the topic. This is not really the place to argue that issue but I will suggest that a woman can dress conservatively and not read as submissive or passive. I tend to dress conservatively. I also tend to be mistaken for someone in charge, sometimes in situations where I am at the bottom of the ladder, not the top.
jotm 13y ago
You're totally right. Starting this summer, I'll get a strong tan and a tramp stamp, wear skinny jeans, a shirt with two, nay three popped collars, uggs and aviators and drive a Segway on the highway. Let people stare at me, call me a douchebag and maybe occasionally punch me - because you know what, it's totally cool to completely disregard societal norms because of my gender.
deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
DanBC 13y ago
I'd be interested to hear her views about religious dress. "Look - if you're going to wear a turban you just have to expect people to judge you". Or names. "Hey - look at the Hollywood producers and stars who changed their names. If you're going to insist on keeping the Horowitz you're just inviting comments from anti-semites". "Black people - I understand that racism exists. But you're not doing yourselves any favours by being so uppity about it. Learn your place and life would be so much easier."

seanhandley 13y ago

She's being pragmatic. And I respect her for that.

mwfunk 13y ago

That's a pretty colossal misinterpretation of what was written, and the reason why she put so many caveats and explanations in there (which were conveniently ignored).

batiudrami 13y ago
What she is saying, is that women should dress conservatively (presumably for their entire life, or at least for the entire time that they do not want to have sex with any man who feels like it) so that when the time comes that they get raped, people are more likely to look favourably upon them, rather than on the rapist. That is absolutely nuts. Not to mention the fact that studies show that there is no correlation between what a woman is wearing and her likelihood of being sexually assaulted. So dressing conservatively won't even help avoid bring raped, but it means that people might side with you afterwards?
- astrange 13y ago
  > Not to mention the fact that studies show that there is no correlation between what a woman is wearing and her likelihood of being sexually assaulted. Could you link these studies, for the public interest?
  - batiudrami 13y ago
    I'll have to dig them up, I was linked them a few years back (when I was on the other side of this argument, actually). edit: This interesting part from the paper I was linked: >While people perceive dress to have an impact on who is assaulted, studies of rapists suggest that victim attire is not a significant factor. Instead, rapists look for signs of passiveness and submissiveness, which, studies suggest, are more likely to coincide with more body-concealing clothing. (140) In a study to test whether males could determine whether women were high or low in passiveness and submissiveness, Richards and her colleagues found that men, using only nonverbal appearance cues, could accurately assess which women were passive and submissive versus those who were dominant and assertive. (141) Clothing was one of the key cues: "Those females high in passivity and submissiveness (i.e., those at greatest risk for victimization) wore noticeably more body-concealing clothing (i.e., high necklines, long pants and sleeves, multiple layers)." (142) This suggests that men equate body-concealing clothing with passive and submissive qualities, which are qualities that rapists look for in victims. Thus, those who wore provocative clothes would not be viewed as passive or submissive, and would be less likely to be victims of assault. http://scholarship.law.duke.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1109&context=djglp http://scholarship.law.duke.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=...
    - Mz 13y ago
      Please note that I also talked about being less warm and friendly -- i.e. behavioral changes, not just clothing -- and the piece is primarily about workplace or professional issues between the sexes, not sexual assault. My rant was inspired by a discussion of a workplace issue where it was not clear cut if the man was "behaving badly" or not but it was clear that the woman wanted him to behave differently towards her. I was roundly criticized for suggesting that dressing more conservatively for a time in response to the issue might help convey a lack of romantic interest in the man without being confrontational. I was told how she dressed at work had absolutely nothing to do with how men at work treated her, the man was merely a creep, etc. We only knew her side of the story. Perhaps he was a creep. Perhaps not. Saying "it's all his fault, he is merely a creep!" is a) jumping to conclusions without knowing both sides of the story and b) pretty disempowering for the woman. If he is merely a creep and the things the woman does are irrelevant, that leaves you with what? Quit your job or put up with unwanted attentions? Not a great set of choices if, like most people, you need your paycheck. I am proposing that dress and behavior can influence how men treat a woman and if you are a woman who is serious about having a career, you should take some responsibility for your half of it and not just bitch about how all men are led around by their pecker and there is nothing a woman can do about it. I did work for a Fortune 500 company for over 5 years. I did deal (very diplomatically) with unwanted male attention on the job. I have also dealt with that in other professional situations. This is not just someone blowing smoke based on zero experience or research. As a woman who (somewhat to my bafflement) comes across as a LOT more aggressive than I wish I did, I assure you that a woman who reads as super aggressive on the job is doing herself no favors. Female passivity is pretty expected in most social settings. Being too aggressive gets you all kinds of attention of the wrong sort and does not help your career. I have also been sexually assaulted (as a child) and have read a lot about the topic. This is not really the place to argue that issue but I will suggest that a woman can dress conservatively and not read as submissive or passive. I tend to dress conservatively. I also tend to be mistaken for someone in charge, sometimes in situations where I am at the bottom of the ladder, not the top.

jotm 13y ago

You're totally right. Starting this summer, I'll get a strong tan and a tramp stamp, wear skinny jeans, a shirt with two, nay three popped collars, uggs and aviators and drive a Segway on the highway. Let people stare at me, call me a douchebag and maybe occasionally punch me - because you know what, it's totally cool to completely disregard societal norms because of my gender.

deleted 13y ago

[deleted]

DanBC 13y ago

I'd be interested to hear her views about religious dress. "Look - if you're going to wear a turban you just have to expect people to judge you". Or names. "Hey - look at the Hollywood producers and stars who changed their names. If you're going to insist on keeping the Horowitz you're just inviting comments from anti-semites". "Black people - I understand that racism exists. But you're not doing yourselves any favours by being so uppity about it. Learn your place and life would be so much easier."