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A Ponzi scheme is an investment fraud that involves the payment of purported returns to existing investors from funds contributed by new investors. Ponz

by gburt 13y ago

A Ponzi scheme is an investment fraud that involves the payment of purported returns to existing investors from funds contributed by new investors. Ponzi scheme organizers often solicit new investors by promising to invest funds in opportunities claimed to generate high returns with little or no risk. With little or no legitimate earnings, Ponzi schemes require a constant flow of money from new investors to continue. Ponzi schemes inevitably collapse, most often when it becomes difficult to recruit new investors or when a large number of investors ask for their funds to be returned. Surely this isn't an "investment fraud" if it is completely honest about how it works. I wouldn't count on the SEC being reasonable about that though.

powera 13y ago
But it's not completely honest. The FAQ says "Every time you send money to the Ponzi address, you'll get back 1.2x what you put in." But by the nature of these scheme, the last 15% of people won't get their money back.
- BlackDeath3 13y ago
  It also not only plainly labels itself a Ponzi scheme, but explains that you'll only get a return if others invest after you.
  - treekiller 13y ago
    It could call itself multi-level marketing and be golden. You just need to resell something tangible, like TF2 hats.
  - vidarh 13y ago
    Ponzi/Pyramid schemes often are honest about this. What they are usually not honest about is the mathematical impossibility of it being possible for it to keep going very long. But some simply bet on people being greedy enough to take the chance that they are getting in early enough... As such I think it is good commentary on Bitcoin and cryptocoins in general - a lot of people do appear to enter expecting a pyramid, and just hoping to get theirs before it collapses.. The question is what proportion they make up.
erikb 13y ago
Beside the word "solicit" the definition you deliver applies 100% to that website. So why do you think it does not follow the definition? The returns come from new investors. It requires a constant flow of money. It will inevitably collapse at one point.
- superuser2 13y ago
  The website does not imply "little to no risk." It explicitly states that it's a Ponzi scheme, which clearly means that you're gambling on not being the last one the party.
  - erikb 13y ago
    Yes, but it is not a requirement to hide the fact that it is a Ponzi to be a Ponzi. It still is, if you know about it or not.
    - superuser2 13y ago
      By this definition, there is. >"purported returns" Disbursements from ponzi.io are not purported to be investment returns or legitimate income of any kind. There are clearly other people's contributions.
mmaunder 13y ago
Yeah IMHO it walks the line between ponzi and pyramid scheme, so you'll either have the SEC or FTC coming after you. e.g. FTC has been hassling MLM schemes for years and they argue the differentiator is the fact that there's a product involved, but this clearly does not have a product, so best case the FTC shuts it down, worst case the interested agencies will include FTC, SEC, U.S. postal service and local and state equivalents. Bit more data on the FTC's opinion: http://www.ftc.gov/public-statements/1998/05/pyramid-schemes http://www.ftc.gov/public-statements/1998/05/pyramid-schemes Incidentally a pyramid scheme almost took down the Albanian economy and sparked the 1997 rebellion. I suspect BTC investors are a little more sophisticated, but given the pseudo-anonymity behind cryptos, I wouldn't be surprised if something like this doesn't wreak a respectable amount of havoc in the future once cryptos are more widely held. PS: If the site author's reading this, I'd start hitting the 5x5 stronglifts hard with a good bulking nutrition regime. You really want to hit the ground in federal prison with a size advantage. So I'm told. Can't wait for the AMA.
- eschaton 13y ago
  If you've been following what's actually gone on in the Bitcoin world for any length of time, you'd know that "BTC investors" aren't "more sophisticated" - they tend to be less so. For one example, take a look at the people in the community who claim BTC exchanges are unregulated, and who "invest" in "stock markets" in BTC and the like: Just because you're not following the law or regulation doesn't mean you're not subject to it. It just means your hoping you don't get caught. Another example? The pirateat40 Ponzi scheme and the creation of "Pirate pass-through" schemes. He claimed to offer 7% interest WEEKLY and Bitcoiners ate it up despite its obvious impossibility. And again they tried to securitize that by selling "shares" in and/or "insuring" their investments, and so on—all without acknowledging there's any form of legal or regulatory process to go through when doing such things. Bitcoin is a total clown show, the history of economics repeated in fast-forward so anarcho-capitalists/libertarians can learn first hand why laws and regulations were invented.
  - JumpCrisscross 13y ago
    >If you've been following what's actually gone on in the Bitcoin world for any length of time, you'd know that "BTC investors" aren't "more sophisticated" - they tend to be less so. Part of this is Bitcoin self-selects against those with a rigorous understanding of monetary economics, capital markets, and foreign exchange.
deleted 13y ago
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by gburt 13y ago

powera 13y ago

But it's not completely honest. The FAQ says "Every time you send money to the Ponzi address, you'll get back 1.2x what you put in." But by the nature of these scheme, the last 15% of people won't get their money back.

BlackDeath3 13y ago
It also not only plainly labels itself a Ponzi scheme, but explains that you'll only get a return if others invest after you.
- treekiller 13y ago
  It could call itself multi-level marketing and be golden. You just need to resell something tangible, like TF2 hats.
- vidarh 13y ago
  Ponzi/Pyramid schemes often are honest about this. What they are usually not honest about is the mathematical impossibility of it being possible for it to keep going very long. But some simply bet on people being greedy enough to take the chance that they are getting in early enough... As such I think it is good commentary on Bitcoin and cryptocoins in general - a lot of people do appear to enter expecting a pyramid, and just hoping to get theirs before it collapses.. The question is what proportion they make up.

erikb 13y ago

Beside the word "solicit" the definition you deliver applies 100% to that website. So why do you think it does not follow the definition? The returns come from new investors. It requires a constant flow of money. It will inevitably collapse at one point.

superuser2 13y ago
The website does not imply "little to no risk." It explicitly states that it's a Ponzi scheme, which clearly means that you're gambling on not being the last one the party.
- erikb 13y ago
  Yes, but it is not a requirement to hide the fact that it is a Ponzi to be a Ponzi. It still is, if you know about it or not.
  - superuser2 13y ago
    By this definition, there is. >"purported returns" Disbursements from ponzi.io are not purported to be investment returns or legitimate income of any kind. There are clearly other people's contributions.

mmaunder 13y ago

Yeah IMHO it walks the line between ponzi and pyramid scheme, so you'll either have the SEC or FTC coming after you. e.g. FTC has been hassling MLM schemes for years and they argue the differentiator is the fact that there's a product involved, but this clearly does not have a product, so best case the FTC shuts it down, worst case the interested agencies will include FTC, SEC, U.S. postal service and local and state equivalents. Bit more data on the FTC's opinion: http://www.ftc.gov/public-statements/1998/05/pyramid-schemes http://www.ftc.gov/public-statements/1998/05/pyramid-schemes Incidentally a pyramid scheme almost took down the Albanian economy and sparked the 1997 rebellion. I suspect BTC investors are a little more sophisticated, but given the pseudo-anonymity behind cryptos, I wouldn't be surprised if something like this doesn't wreak a respectable amount of havoc in the future once cryptos are more widely held. PS: If the site author's reading this, I'd start hitting the 5x5 stronglifts hard with a good bulking nutrition regime. You really want to hit the ground in federal prison with a size advantage. So I'm told. Can't wait for the AMA.

eschaton 13y ago
If you've been following what's actually gone on in the Bitcoin world for any length of time, you'd know that "BTC investors" aren't "more sophisticated" - they tend to be less so. For one example, take a look at the people in the community who claim BTC exchanges are unregulated, and who "invest" in "stock markets" in BTC and the like: Just because you're not following the law or regulation doesn't mean you're not subject to it. It just means your hoping you don't get caught. Another example? The pirateat40 Ponzi scheme and the creation of "Pirate pass-through" schemes. He claimed to offer 7% interest WEEKLY and Bitcoiners ate it up despite its obvious impossibility. And again they tried to securitize that by selling "shares" in and/or "insuring" their investments, and so on—all without acknowledging there's any form of legal or regulatory process to go through when doing such things. Bitcoin is a total clown show, the history of economics repeated in fast-forward so anarcho-capitalists/libertarians can learn first hand why laws and regulations were invented.
- JumpCrisscross 13y ago
  >If you've been following what's actually gone on in the Bitcoin world for any length of time, you'd know that "BTC investors" aren't "more sophisticated" - they tend to be less so. Part of this is Bitcoin self-selects against those with a rigorous understanding of monetary economics, capital markets, and foreign exchange.

deleted 13y ago

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