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And what kind of language does belong in a software project? He's literally giving away work he did in his own time for free and you complain about the language

by merijnv 13y ago

And what kind of language does belong in a software project? He's literally giving away work he did in his own time for free and you complain about the language he used when he did so? If you don't like the language, don't use the library? Seems a simple solution.

sdegutis 13y ago
That sounds nice, but I don't think it works that way. People see software projects like this, and they develop impressions that software programmers are not professional. The result is that programmers are not treated like professionals.
- merijnv 13y ago
  By the same logic: People see reactions like yours and they develop impressions that software programmers are boring stick-in-the-muds. The result is that programmers are not treated as people you'd want to interact with. In the grand scheme of things do you think that people who write like Zed are going to feel compelled to change their behaviour because you would like them too?
  - sdegutis 13y ago
    > People see reactions like yours and they develop impressions that software programmers are boring stick-in-the-muds. That's probably better than being treated as unprofessional. > The result is that programmers are not treated as people you'd want to interact with. It's totally possible to be friendly and have a sense of humor without being distasteful. > do you think that people who write like Zed are going to feel compelled to change their behaviour because you would like them too? Nope, that thought never crossed my mind.
- throwaway092834 13y ago
  It really does, in fact, work that way. Vulgar language is pretty common both in OSS and, perhaps surprisingly, in private codebases. I assume you don't subscribe to LKML, or have never read the linux kernel source? grep -ir fuck in linux, you may be surprised at what you uncover. I understand your point and on a personal level I agree. I maintain a level of professionalism in my own work. I find that kind of language ultimately unproductive. However, the OSS world has a good deal of engineering talent that swears like a sailor and is, at the same time, quite successful. This is simply an observable fact.
  - sdegutis 13y ago
    You're totally right. There are plenty of super talented and productive people out there of all kinds. But that doesn't mean none of them are giving programmers in general a bad name. Some of them very likely are.
    - EGreg 13y ago
      Maybe Linus should stop insulting people in a geeky way. And Bill Gates should have not been so nerdy. They affected people's perception!
      - sdegutis 13y ago
        I think a better analogy are the kind of programmers who make the kind of sexist jokes that you'd find in an Eminem song. This attitude proliferates and becomes such a general stereotype about "programmers" that it gives rise to activists[1] who work hard[2] to fight it. [1]: i.e. https://twitter.com/steveklabnik https://twitter.com/steveklabnik [2]: probably too hard
        EGreg 13y ago
        So what makes the analogy better isthatthey promote the stereotype that programmers harm people. I agree, this is the same kind of group self policing that Bruce Schneier would describe in The Dishonest Minority when for example local merchants screw tourists. Although individual reputation isnt affected, the group reputation is.
    - throwaway092834 13y ago
      I'm much more interested in protecting individual freedom of expression than I am with worrying whether there are people out there who are so crass as to collectively judge the entire field of software development. Code is speech. Open source projects often have a subtext of affecting a political or social change either within a software community, or sometimes beyond. In this particular case, my reading of the text is that Zed wishes to create a baseline of ridicule for those who would prefer to alter software to support extremely old browsers. It's a fair position, and while he may be able to make that point without vulgar language he may also be effectively speaking to his audience with his crude humor. As merijnv noted above, if you feel so strongly about language you're free to not use his project. He is free to speak and code as he wishes and you are free to support what you wish. This freedom of expression is extremely valuable, not because the word "fuck" has any particular intrinsic value, but because it's a culture of permissiveness which enables people to speak their minds and attempt to affect change even if they're clumsy and crude with language. Because it allows comedy -- and everyone's perception of comedic value is different.
- benihana 13y ago
  >People see software projects like this, and they develop impressions that software programmers are not professional. Who other than programmers do you think is going to see the readme?
- MaybiusStrip 13y ago
  Do you have any data or evidence backing this up? Because it's completely out of sync with my personal experience. I've found that if you want to work as a software engineer with people who don't make those types of judgments and regard and pay you as a professional, there are more than enough opportunities. You may find swearing distasteful, but for some of us working with people who judge us based on some moral assessment of our language is just as repulsive.
- jeremiep 13y ago
  I would pick Zed's code over the code of a "professionnal" any day. I prefer direct, raw and to the point language over watered down politically correct speech any day. The former cares about substance while the later cares about appearances. After years in the industry, I've become weary of the word "professionnal". It doesn't mean youre talented, it doesn't mean you have a good understanding of how computers really work. It only means you're good at being politically correct. And that has very little value when it comes to developing software. You can't describe something rational using emotional language.
  - sdegutis 13y ago
    "Politically correct" seems to mean "being respectful, courteous, and considerate of everyone involved". I fail to see how that's a negative thing to be avoided, or how it's "watered down".
    - jeremiep 13y ago
      That's negative if you use it as a filter. I'm not saying being polite is wrong, far from it. What I'm saying is that professionalism is a mediocre metric in our industry. Just like lines of code is a mediocre metric for the progression of a project. Both metrics look good on the surface. Yet using them shows a very poor understanding of what engineering is.
  - forgottenpass 13y ago
    After years in the industry, I've become weary of the word "professionnal". It doesn't mean youre talented, it doesn't mean you have a good understanding of how computers really work. It only means you're good at being politically correct. I agree with you entirely. I've heard the word "professional" at least an order of magnitude more when the topic of conversation is my mohawk rather than my work output or ability to operate in a team. I see two options. Either I'm so middling at my job nobody would ever call me unprofessional, professional or suggest that I act more professional. Or, as I suspect, the word "professional" is a nothing but a tool to conflate the social signaling of conformance with the ability to perform a job.
deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
susi22 13y ago
So you're saying that you shouldn't criticize others just because they're giving it away for free? If you question that others shouldn't complain about other things then we quickly end up in a world where movie critics can't criticize a movie since they didn't pay for them. Where I can't criticize google since their services are for free. You should always speak up and voice your opinion. But your argument "don't complain, take it or leave it; it's for free" can't be applied anywhere IMO. In fact, the author should be thankful for any critique he's getting. Not getting any feedback means that nobody cares about your work or doesn't care about you failing.
- yawboakye 13y ago
  > If you question that others shouldn't complain about other things then we quickly end up in a world where movie critics can't criticize a movie since they didn't pay for them. Where I can't criticize google since their services are for free. Not really. It's like the movie critic spotlighting a comment the director passed on set. Or you bitching about a comment in Google's C++ code you saw on a Googler's laptop. You know, you don't have to care about that stuff. Just use it!

by merijnv 13y ago

sdegutis 13y ago

That sounds nice, but I don't think it works that way. People see software projects like this, and they develop impressions that software programmers are not professional. The result is that programmers are not treated like professionals.

merijnv 13y ago
By the same logic: People see reactions like yours and they develop impressions that software programmers are boring stick-in-the-muds. The result is that programmers are not treated as people you'd want to interact with. In the grand scheme of things do you think that people who write like Zed are going to feel compelled to change their behaviour because you would like them too?
- sdegutis 13y ago
  > People see reactions like yours and they develop impressions that software programmers are boring stick-in-the-muds. That's probably better than being treated as unprofessional. > The result is that programmers are not treated as people you'd want to interact with. It's totally possible to be friendly and have a sense of humor without being distasteful. > do you think that people who write like Zed are going to feel compelled to change their behaviour because you would like them too? Nope, that thought never crossed my mind.
throwaway092834 13y ago
It really does, in fact, work that way. Vulgar language is pretty common both in OSS and, perhaps surprisingly, in private codebases. I assume you don't subscribe to LKML, or have never read the linux kernel source? grep -ir fuck in linux, you may be surprised at what you uncover. I understand your point and on a personal level I agree. I maintain a level of professionalism in my own work. I find that kind of language ultimately unproductive. However, the OSS world has a good deal of engineering talent that swears like a sailor and is, at the same time, quite successful. This is simply an observable fact.
- sdegutis 13y ago
  You're totally right. There are plenty of super talented and productive people out there of all kinds. But that doesn't mean none of them are giving programmers in general a bad name. Some of them very likely are.
  - EGreg 13y ago
    Maybe Linus should stop insulting people in a geeky way. And Bill Gates should have not been so nerdy. They affected people's perception!
    - sdegutis 13y ago
      I think a better analogy are the kind of programmers who make the kind of sexist jokes that you'd find in an Eminem song. This attitude proliferates and becomes such a general stereotype about "programmers" that it gives rise to activists[1] who work hard[2] to fight it. [1]: i.e. https://twitter.com/steveklabnik https://twitter.com/steveklabnik [2]: probably too hard
      - EGreg 13y ago
        So what makes the analogy better isthatthey promote the stereotype that programmers harm people. I agree, this is the same kind of group self policing that Bruce Schneier would describe in The Dishonest Minority when for example local merchants screw tourists. Although individual reputation isnt affected, the group reputation is.
  - throwaway092834 13y ago
    I'm much more interested in protecting individual freedom of expression than I am with worrying whether there are people out there who are so crass as to collectively judge the entire field of software development. Code is speech. Open source projects often have a subtext of affecting a political or social change either within a software community, or sometimes beyond. In this particular case, my reading of the text is that Zed wishes to create a baseline of ridicule for those who would prefer to alter software to support extremely old browsers. It's a fair position, and while he may be able to make that point without vulgar language he may also be effectively speaking to his audience with his crude humor. As merijnv noted above, if you feel so strongly about language you're free to not use his project. He is free to speak and code as he wishes and you are free to support what you wish. This freedom of expression is extremely valuable, not because the word "fuck" has any particular intrinsic value, but because it's a culture of permissiveness which enables people to speak their minds and attempt to affect change even if they're clumsy and crude with language. Because it allows comedy -- and everyone's perception of comedic value is different.
benihana 13y ago
>People see software projects like this, and they develop impressions that software programmers are not professional. Who other than programmers do you think is going to see the readme?
MaybiusStrip 13y ago
Do you have any data or evidence backing this up? Because it's completely out of sync with my personal experience. I've found that if you want to work as a software engineer with people who don't make those types of judgments and regard and pay you as a professional, there are more than enough opportunities. You may find swearing distasteful, but for some of us working with people who judge us based on some moral assessment of our language is just as repulsive.
jeremiep 13y ago
I would pick Zed's code over the code of a "professionnal" any day. I prefer direct, raw and to the point language over watered down politically correct speech any day. The former cares about substance while the later cares about appearances. After years in the industry, I've become weary of the word "professionnal". It doesn't mean youre talented, it doesn't mean you have a good understanding of how computers really work. It only means you're good at being politically correct. And that has very little value when it comes to developing software. You can't describe something rational using emotional language.
- sdegutis 13y ago
  "Politically correct" seems to mean "being respectful, courteous, and considerate of everyone involved". I fail to see how that's a negative thing to be avoided, or how it's "watered down".
  - jeremiep 13y ago
    That's negative if you use it as a filter. I'm not saying being polite is wrong, far from it. What I'm saying is that professionalism is a mediocre metric in our industry. Just like lines of code is a mediocre metric for the progression of a project. Both metrics look good on the surface. Yet using them shows a very poor understanding of what engineering is.
- forgottenpass 13y ago
  After years in the industry, I've become weary of the word "professionnal". It doesn't mean youre talented, it doesn't mean you have a good understanding of how computers really work. It only means you're good at being politically correct. I agree with you entirely. I've heard the word "professional" at least an order of magnitude more when the topic of conversation is my mohawk rather than my work output or ability to operate in a team. I see two options. Either I'm so middling at my job nobody would ever call me unprofessional, professional or suggest that I act more professional. Or, as I suspect, the word "professional" is a nothing but a tool to conflate the social signaling of conformance with the ability to perform a job.

deleted 13y ago

[deleted]

susi22 13y ago

So you're saying that you shouldn't criticize others just because they're giving it away for free? If you question that others shouldn't complain about other things then we quickly end up in a world where movie critics can't criticize a movie since they didn't pay for them. Where I can't criticize google since their services are for free. You should always speak up and voice your opinion. But your argument "don't complain, take it or leave it; it's for free" can't be applied anywhere IMO. In fact, the author should be thankful for any critique he's getting. Not getting any feedback means that nobody cares about your work or doesn't care about you failing.

yawboakye 13y ago
> If you question that others shouldn't complain about other things then we quickly end up in a world where movie critics can't criticize a movie since they didn't pay for them. Where I can't criticize google since their services are for free. Not really. It's like the movie critic spotlighting a comment the director passed on set. Or you bitching about a comment in Google's C++ code you saw on a Googler's laptop. You know, you don't have to care about that stuff. Just use it!