9 ms·
> This also only really works on IE9 and maybe IE8 or better, but honstly IE6 and IE7 users users can seriously go fuck themselves with a dirty brick. This kin
by sdegutis 13y ago
> This also only really works on IE9 and maybe IE8 or better, but honstly IE6 and IE7 users users can seriously go fuck themselves with a dirty brick.
This kind of language doesn't belong in a software project, let alone its README, and is very likely one of the reasons software professionals are often not treated like professionals.
- agumonkey 13y agoYeah, a little too rock n roll here. Also, I don't think there's such a thing as a IE6/7 user (in the sense of mass of visitors to support for a website to thrive), only people forced to use it by heavy constraints. ps-edit: I mean, Zed Shaw knows about enterprises locked into IT contracts etc etc, so his comment was free noise. I guess that's just how he likes to speak and joke.
- sdegutis 13y agoHonestly, I'm starting to think IE6 is just an urban legend. I mean, has anyone ever actually seen it?
- deleted 13y ago[deleted]
- agumonkey 13y agoI don't know but we shouldn't write its name too often I don't want to summon evil spirits. ps: this made me google a bit for %, seems like 6 and 7 summed are around 7%.
- leoc 13y agoChina. http://www.modern.ie/ie6countdown http://www.modern.ie/ie6countdown
- rubiquity 13y agoYou're kidding right? You must live in the Bay Area. There exists these other continents named South America, Africa and Asia. I know I sound crazy right now but people in those mythical lands I just mentioned don't have the latest and greatest computers, or anything remotely close. Try closing your eyes for a minute and imagine a land without latte art, Apple products and toques. It'll blow your mind.
- agumonkey 13y agoI don't think these people are stuck with IE6 either. I'm pulling this out of my ass but my belief is that IE6/7 users are people who don't own the machine, in other words employees stuck with corporate system[1]. Other than that you can just install and run firefox or chrome on old machines[2]. [1] I've seen it in national offices were they could only use a verified systems that were implemented by some company in the win95 days so they can't upgrade. In other companies they bought brand new lenovo desktops and scrapped vista to put xp+office2k3 for IT support and compatibility reasons. [2] I run a 2006 laptop as my main one (tpad x60s), and often use a 2005 x41 on the go with no issues.
- sdegutis 13y agoI live a few minutes away from nothing but cornfields. Also, the IE6 thing was my attempt at humor. :)
- apaprocki 13y agoThere is still a visible % of IE6 users on more general sites. Most of the HN crowd will tell you IE6 is dead and Chrome has the largest browser share, but on a more general audience site (e.g. bloomberg.com), IE6 still has users (not all from China) and IE is still the dominant browser.
- deedubaya 13y ago1953 called, they want their prudeness back. I like a little humor in my software projects, especially the type of humor that I can relate to. It reminds me than the people I work with aren't just "software professionals", but humans with personality and a sense of humor.
- sdegutis 13y agoIt's kind of sad that decency is now considered outdated.
- rquantz 13y agoIt's kind of sad that you think the word fuck is indecent.
- deleted 13y ago[deleted]
- sdegutis 13y agoI really wish I could see how many upvotes and downvotes other comments and my comments have. It'd be really interesting to see some kind of statistics on the general HN community's stance on disagreements like this.
- jbm 13y agoI assume English is your first language, hence you should be aware that it is a profanity. To some, that is reason enough. I don't see why you are acting surprised; and it isn't witty in the context of this conversation either. If offending old neckbeards doesn't bother you, then as a software engineer, don't you think most profanities are incredibly vague and meaningless - to the point where expressing them serve as nothing but a method to reduce the signal-to-noise ratio rather than as a method of communication? There are effective ways to indicate the whole range of emotions that a profanity may represent. Many witty, precise, nimble bits of communication that can use to delight, shock or enlighten your partner in whatever way you choose. Profanities, on the contrary, are trite, boring, counter-intuitively childish conversational shortcuts which moreover assumes that you share a common frame of reference with someone else who will "get it", and suggests one doesn't want to invest effort to communicate distinctly one's ideas. Frankly, your response didn't warrant a long rejoinder (as you probably didn't think it through) but it is such a common response in this thread that I thought I owed it to one of you to at least try to explain why some of us really don't put profanity in our code and try to avoid using it in a professional or personal context. PS: I don't see the long stream of profanity in PG's essays, do you?
- merijnv 13y agoAnd what kind of language does belong in a software project? He's literally giving away work he did in his own time for free and you complain about the language he used when he did so? If you don't like the language, don't use the library? Seems a simple solution.
- sdegutis 13y agoThat sounds nice, but I don't think it works that way. People see software projects like this, and they develop impressions that software programmers are not professional. The result is that programmers are not treated like professionals.
- merijnv 13y agoBy the same logic: People see reactions like yours and they develop impressions that software programmers are boring stick-in-the-muds. The result is that programmers are not treated as people you'd want to interact with. In the grand scheme of things do you think that people who write like Zed are going to feel compelled to change their behaviour because you would like them too?
- sdegutis 13y ago> People see reactions like yours and they develop impressions that software programmers are boring stick-in-the-muds. That's probably better than being treated as unprofessional. > The result is that programmers are not treated as people you'd want to interact with. It's totally possible to be friendly and have a sense of humor without being distasteful. > do you think that people who write like Zed are going to feel compelled to change their behaviour because you would like them too? Nope, that thought never crossed my mind.
- throwaway092834 13y agoIt really does, in fact, work that way. Vulgar language is pretty common both in OSS and, perhaps surprisingly, in private codebases. I assume you don't subscribe to LKML, or have never read the linux kernel source? grep -ir fuck in linux, you may be surprised at what you uncover. I understand your point and on a personal level I agree. I maintain a level of professionalism in my own work. I find that kind of language ultimately unproductive. However, the OSS world has a good deal of engineering talent that swears like a sailor and is, at the same time, quite successful. This is simply an observable fact.
- frou_dh 13y agoI guess that's an upside of the personal Software Project: you're under no obligation to listen to Software Professionals telling you what does or does not Belong in it.
- m3mnoch 13y agoheh. i'd expect nothing less from zed. this comment makes me assume some of you youngsters don't know who he is. from his site: "Yes I say "fuck", and quite a lot of "bad words", mostly because it's funny to watch you shit your pants at them. It's not like you're going to give me a job so fuck it, I'll say fuck. fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck* *Did I mention? fuck"
- jiggy2011 13y agoThat's just juvenile. I don't "shit my pants" over stuff like this, I roll my eyes.
- reidrac 13y agoYou're making an unfair generalisation. I'm not sure if that kind of language is often used in software projects, and this specific project comes from Zed Shaw that is well known for his quite "unique" approach to software projects. I don't know if you're aware of http://programming-motherfucker.com/ http://programming-motherfucker.com/ -- again, it's a joke, a parody, and it's funny as jokes and parodies are. But honestly, I don't think anybody will really use that kind of language or attitude in a professional environment. EDIT: typo
- wyuenho 13y agoI bet they are all very unprofessional. https://github.com/search?q=fuck https://github.com/search?q=fuck http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WTFPL http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WTFPL http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brainfuck http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brainfuck http://www.w3fools.com/ http://www.w3fools.com/
- bambax 13y ago"It's legit purpose" annoys me much more. It's Its, for fuck's sake.
- _ak 13y ago...says the tone police.
- sdegutis 13y agoThis is such an overused fallacy lately. It really seems to just be the go-to phrase in disagreements whenever courtesy and respect are discussed.
- _ak 13y agoIt's not overused at all... tone policing is the most uninteresting and outright annoying response you can possibly produce in a technical discussion. Also, this: http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Graham's_Hierarchy_of_Disagreement.svg http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Graham's_Hierarchy_of...
- integricho 13y agoI heard his talk on DjangoCon, it was strange at first, but now I'm kinda used to it, even expecting him to talk that way..
- deleted 13y ago[deleted]
- jwmerrill 13y agoClearly, you aren't familiar with Zed's oevré.