5 ms·

Android Teleportation (or silly location restrictions)

28 points by gingerlime 13y ago

myko 13y ago
This is really annoying. While traveling in Europe last fall I couldn't download movies from Google Play on my device for the flight back, even though I had purchased them before leaving the US! Really bad user experience.
herbig 13y ago
"Those location-based restrictions are totally silly. I can’t figure out any logical reason to block people from accessing (and paying!) for your apps and content if they happen to be elsewhere." Some apps depend on data that is country specific, or do things that other countries don't need or understand. Or perhaps there isn't much of a market for it there, so the number of users being low may make the app worthless. Any time someone downloads an app and it doesn't work, they don't understand it, it's not in their language, or it doesn't provide them immediate value, you run the risk of a 1 star review.
corresation 13y ago
As a Canadian who endlessly faces geo-restrictions on US-based content, it seems inaccurate to hold DVD regionalization as some bygone oddity -- it is very much alive and well, maybe more prevalent than ever. The logical reason is of course business optimization. The people who licensed content to a Japanese ebook bookseller don't want them taking sales from other licensees in other areas. The television program that is on Hulu doesn't want to be seen by Canadians, where entirely different licensees pay big money for a monopoly on the content. And so on. And of course the Android store lets you limit apps to certain countries often for entirely practical reasons. When the Chromecast was only available in the US, the app was similarly restricted to only the US, presumably to avoid support and other issues outside of the country.
- gingerlime 13y ago
  Similarly to my comment above, I think there's an unnecessary entanglement of delivery mechanism (the app) and content (the ebook). Authors and publishers should realise the potential to reach audiences that would otherwise not be accessible, and make the most of it. Instead they lock themselves and take away one of the amazing benefits of this new format. I think the DVD region protection has clearly failed. Most players can be switched to region-free mode, and it's much easier obtaining copies of the media via file sharing or otherwise (and in many cases it would be legal to do so if you own a copy of the DVD). I was hoping that by now people will learn from the mistakes of the DVD region protection and the frustration it brought to customers who paid for your product and figure out something better by now. But this stupidity will likely to continue, until it fails again.
WildUtah 13y ago
It's not silly at all. The legal situation in some countries is dangerous or even crazy. If you can protect yourself from exposure to it when you're vulnerable, then you should consider doing so. For instance, Japan has long copyright terms. Copyright extends to the end of the life of the author plus fifty years. But the EU has ludicrous copyright terms that are at least 20 years longer. Copyright in the USA is permanent (technically, the congress has to comply with Disney's lobbying every 20 years to keep extending it, but the vote is unanimous). So there's a lot of material .jp servers and apps might want to offer you that's illegal in the EU or USA. Even worse than that, the USA has a patent system where in app purchase is covered by dozens of patents, online backup or storage is covered by thousands of patents, basic common UI elements are almost all patented, and so on. You can't write even a trivial app without either infringing or buying millions of dollars in licenses. App authors just have to be comfortable with infringing and accepting effectively unlimited liability. Well, okay, I guess it is silly and crazy, but it's not the fault of Google or app publishers. The legal systems of modern nations as they apply to the internet are nasty and they're all different. Wise people might be reluctant to expose themselves unnecessarily.
- gingerlime 13y ago
  > Well, okay, I guess it is silly and crazy, but it's not the fault of Google or app publishers. The legal systems of modern nations as they apply to the internet are nasty and they're all different. OP here. The fact that a media like (e)books become entangled in this mess is totally absurd. Think of a paper book suddenly becoming illegal (regardless of its contents) as soon as it crosses some border. > Wise people might be reluctant to expose themselves unnecessarily. Wise people should aim to please their customers, and build a good and honest relationship with them. I think those who embrace the new medium and understand its potential to reach a far wider audience would succeed. Sticking to old rules and regulations that fail to catch-up with progress won't solve any problem. I also think consumers should aim to acquire media that is not bound to the delivery mechanism. And it should also be within the interest of authors and publishers. Why can't I choose the app to read my ebook independently of the ebook itself??
  - 13y ago
DominikR 13y ago
> Those location-based restrictions are totally silly. I can’t figure out any logical reason to block people from accessing (and paying!) for your apps and content if they happen to be elsewhere. To give you an example why this makes sense: One of our apps uses local dialin numbers to allow our customers to make cheap calls to foreign countries. Since we do not have local dialin numbers in every single country, we limit the access to those countries. If we didn't limit the access the app would either be useless to some customers, or useless AND very expensive (if for example a US customer routed via German dialin number to his destination) So to me, this is a feature, you often just don't have the information about the technical or regulatory reasons why an app is restricted.
SyneRyder 13y ago
As annoying as location restrictions are, one reason is often taxation laws. I would love to offer my apps for sale in every country in the world, but as a non-European, to legally sell my apps on the Google Play store in European countries, I have to apply to an EU country to establish a business nexus there, and file VAT tax returns every few months. (Yes, the EU requires non-EU businesses to remit VAT on digital software sales, they regard online sales as occurring where the customer resides.) It's a ridiculous amount of bureaucracy for a 99c app that is unlikely to earn much anyway, so right now I just exclude sales to European countries instead. There's a blog post from Retro Dreamer with more info on this, as one example of location restrictions being a result of tax laws: http://retrodreamer.com/blog/2012/03/why-dont-we-have-paid-versions-on-the-android-market/ http://retrodreamer.com/blog/2012/03/why-dont-we-have-paid-v... So don't always blame the content creator, the bottleneck might be closer to where you are. I love Berlin, but it also has some of the worst geolocation restrictions due to local laws (look into GEMA blocking music on YouTube, if you haven't encountered it yet - even if the artist wants you to listen to it, GEMA can block the song because it hasn't been officially registered with authorities yet).
- Houshalter 13y ago
  This is probably a stupid question but how would they go after you for not paying the tax if you don't even live in the country? Would they even be able to detect it? And is there any basis for blocking based on IP, instead of a disclaimer or some other method of identification?
  - gamblor956 13y ago
    They don't, because under international tax law you generally don't owe income taxes for sales that were not made while physically out of the country attempting to levy the tax. (Sale meaning any of negotiating, signing/approving the transaction, or title of transfer occurring in the tested country.) It's a basic principle of international taxation (for reference, look up income sourcing rules if you're interested.)
  - SyneRyder 13y ago
    If you don't live in an EU country, they generally can't / don't pursue you, but if you travel to Europe (as I do sometimes) they could arrest you when you cross the border. There was a case of that happening to a developer in the desktop software days, but I can't find a link to the news story now. In practice, the EU pressured US-based payment gateways into handling it on behalf of developers (which is really best for everyone, and essentially what Apple & Amazon already does today). If you don't mind ignoring EU laws, I'm sure most people on the Google Play store are also ignoring them and getting away with it. But there are lots of Nintendo IP infringements on the Google Play store as well, so the fact that it's common doesn't necessarily make it legal. For some history, there's an old Business Of Software thread on the debate, including folks like Andy Brice & Patrick McKenzie chiming in with their views: http://discuss.joelonsoftware.com/default.asp?biz.5.465929.30 http://discuss.joelonsoftware.com/default.asp?biz.5.465929.3...
mindslight 13y ago
This thread is full of purely self-inflicted problems. Stop. Patronizing. The. Dinosaurs.

28 points by gingerlime 13y ago

myko 13y ago

This is really annoying. While traveling in Europe last fall I couldn't download movies from Google Play on my device for the flight back, even though I had purchased them before leaving the US! Really bad user experience.

herbig 13y ago

"Those location-based restrictions are totally silly. I can’t figure out any logical reason to block people from accessing (and paying!) for your apps and content if they happen to be elsewhere." Some apps depend on data that is country specific, or do things that other countries don't need or understand. Or perhaps there isn't much of a market for it there, so the number of users being low may make the app worthless. Any time someone downloads an app and it doesn't work, they don't understand it, it's not in their language, or it doesn't provide them immediate value, you run the risk of a 1 star review.

corresation 13y ago

As a Canadian who endlessly faces geo-restrictions on US-based content, it seems inaccurate to hold DVD regionalization as some bygone oddity -- it is very much alive and well, maybe more prevalent than ever. The logical reason is of course business optimization. The people who licensed content to a Japanese ebook bookseller don't want them taking sales from other licensees in other areas. The television program that is on Hulu doesn't want to be seen by Canadians, where entirely different licensees pay big money for a monopoly on the content. And so on. And of course the Android store lets you limit apps to certain countries often for entirely practical reasons. When the Chromecast was only available in the US, the app was similarly restricted to only the US, presumably to avoid support and other issues outside of the country.

gingerlime 13y ago
Similarly to my comment above, I think there's an unnecessary entanglement of delivery mechanism (the app) and content (the ebook). Authors and publishers should realise the potential to reach audiences that would otherwise not be accessible, and make the most of it. Instead they lock themselves and take away one of the amazing benefits of this new format. I think the DVD region protection has clearly failed. Most players can be switched to region-free mode, and it's much easier obtaining copies of the media via file sharing or otherwise (and in many cases it would be legal to do so if you own a copy of the DVD). I was hoping that by now people will learn from the mistakes of the DVD region protection and the frustration it brought to customers who paid for your product and figure out something better by now. But this stupidity will likely to continue, until it fails again.

WildUtah 13y ago

It's not silly at all. The legal situation in some countries is dangerous or even crazy. If you can protect yourself from exposure to it when you're vulnerable, then you should consider doing so. For instance, Japan has long copyright terms. Copyright extends to the end of the life of the author plus fifty years. But the EU has ludicrous copyright terms that are at least 20 years longer. Copyright in the USA is permanent (technically, the congress has to comply with Disney's lobbying every 20 years to keep extending it, but the vote is unanimous). So there's a lot of material .jp servers and apps might want to offer you that's illegal in the EU or USA. Even worse than that, the USA has a patent system where in app purchase is covered by dozens of patents, online backup or storage is covered by thousands of patents, basic common UI elements are almost all patented, and so on. You can't write even a trivial app without either infringing or buying millions of dollars in licenses. App authors just have to be comfortable with infringing and accepting effectively unlimited liability. Well, okay, I guess it is silly and crazy, but it's not the fault of Google or app publishers. The legal systems of modern nations as they apply to the internet are nasty and they're all different. Wise people might be reluctant to expose themselves unnecessarily.

gingerlime 13y ago
> Well, okay, I guess it is silly and crazy, but it's not the fault of Google or app publishers. The legal systems of modern nations as they apply to the internet are nasty and they're all different. OP here. The fact that a media like (e)books become entangled in this mess is totally absurd. Think of a paper book suddenly becoming illegal (regardless of its contents) as soon as it crosses some border. > Wise people might be reluctant to expose themselves unnecessarily. Wise people should aim to please their customers, and build a good and honest relationship with them. I think those who embrace the new medium and understand its potential to reach a far wider audience would succeed. Sticking to old rules and regulations that fail to catch-up with progress won't solve any problem. I also think consumers should aim to acquire media that is not bound to the delivery mechanism. And it should also be within the interest of authors and publishers. Why can't I choose the app to read my ebook independently of the ebook itself??
- 13y ago

DominikR 13y ago

> Those location-based restrictions are totally silly. I can’t figure out any logical reason to block people from accessing (and paying!) for your apps and content if they happen to be elsewhere. To give you an example why this makes sense: One of our apps uses local dialin numbers to allow our customers to make cheap calls to foreign countries. Since we do not have local dialin numbers in every single country, we limit the access to those countries. If we didn't limit the access the app would either be useless to some customers, or useless AND very expensive (if for example a US customer routed via German dialin number to his destination) So to me, this is a feature, you often just don't have the information about the technical or regulatory reasons why an app is restricted.

SyneRyder 13y ago

As annoying as location restrictions are, one reason is often taxation laws. I would love to offer my apps for sale in every country in the world, but as a non-European, to legally sell my apps on the Google Play store in European countries, I have to apply to an EU country to establish a business nexus there, and file VAT tax returns every few months. (Yes, the EU requires non-EU businesses to remit VAT on digital software sales, they regard online sales as occurring where the customer resides.) It's a ridiculous amount of bureaucracy for a 99c app that is unlikely to earn much anyway, so right now I just exclude sales to European countries instead. There's a blog post from Retro Dreamer with more info on this, as one example of location restrictions being a result of tax laws: http://retrodreamer.com/blog/2012/03/why-dont-we-have-paid-versions-on-the-android-market/ http://retrodreamer.com/blog/2012/03/why-dont-we-have-paid-v... So don't always blame the content creator, the bottleneck might be closer to where you are. I love Berlin, but it also has some of the worst geolocation restrictions due to local laws (look into GEMA blocking music on YouTube, if you haven't encountered it yet - even if the artist wants you to listen to it, GEMA can block the song because it hasn't been officially registered with authorities yet).

Houshalter 13y ago
This is probably a stupid question but how would they go after you for not paying the tax if you don't even live in the country? Would they even be able to detect it? And is there any basis for blocking based on IP, instead of a disclaimer or some other method of identification?
- gamblor956 13y ago
  They don't, because under international tax law you generally don't owe income taxes for sales that were not made while physically out of the country attempting to levy the tax. (Sale meaning any of negotiating, signing/approving the transaction, or title of transfer occurring in the tested country.) It's a basic principle of international taxation (for reference, look up income sourcing rules if you're interested.)
- SyneRyder 13y ago
  If you don't live in an EU country, they generally can't / don't pursue you, but if you travel to Europe (as I do sometimes) they could arrest you when you cross the border. There was a case of that happening to a developer in the desktop software days, but I can't find a link to the news story now. In practice, the EU pressured US-based payment gateways into handling it on behalf of developers (which is really best for everyone, and essentially what Apple & Amazon already does today). If you don't mind ignoring EU laws, I'm sure most people on the Google Play store are also ignoring them and getting away with it. But there are lots of Nintendo IP infringements on the Google Play store as well, so the fact that it's common doesn't necessarily make it legal. For some history, there's an old Business Of Software thread on the debate, including folks like Andy Brice & Patrick McKenzie chiming in with their views: http://discuss.joelonsoftware.com/default.asp?biz.5.465929.30 http://discuss.joelonsoftware.com/default.asp?biz.5.465929.3...

mindslight 13y ago

This thread is full of purely self-inflicted problems. Stop. Patronizing. The. Dinosaurs.