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How about, prices start reflecting true market sentiment without a huge manipulator artificially propping prices up on its own make-believe exchange that doesn'

by pyalot2 13y ago

How about, prices start reflecting true market sentiment without a huge manipulator artificially propping prices up on its own make-believe exchange that doesn't allow withdrawals and reports fantasy trades?

dclusin 13y ago
Could you please elaborate on your fantasy trades remark? I was aware of Mt. Gox fiat issues, and now the BTC hold. Were they accused of booking fictitious trades?
- pyalot2 13y ago
  Gox had a huge gap in its price to other exchanges. This gap came to be because Gox replaced USD with Goxdollars (a kind of currency that only exists inside of Gox). Therefore arbitrage was not capable of closing this gap, because Goxdollars could not be converted to USD. If you are trading Bitcoins for Goxdollars, that's fantasy trades. However this novel introduction of Goxdollars was now consequently followed by the introduction of the Goxcoin which marks the migration complete. Goxcoins cannot be converted to Bitcoins. However you can now trade Goxcoins vs. Goxdollars. All trades on Gox are now pure fantasy. Seeing as Gox is the Magic the gathering exchange, I find this strangely appropriate.
  - dragontamer 13y ago
    Other people don't get it. You speak the truth. Every exchange has "GoxCoins" and "GoxDollars". It is necessary for any large scale bank or exchange to work. The creation of this fiction is not in of itself morally reprehensible... it is when the fiction no longer lines up with reality when issues arise. "GoxDollars" stopped being "like real dollars" when USD Withdrawals were hampered or stopped. "GoxCoins" just stopped being "like real Bitcoins" when BTC withdrawals stopped a few days ago.
  - Anderkent 13y ago
    >If you are trading Bitcoins for Goxdollars, that's fantasy trades. Uh, no, it's real trades. That's the same argument as 'IF you're trading USD for BTC, it's fantasy trades!'
    - pyalot2 13y ago
      If you give me bitcoins, and I give you virtual magic mushrooms, and then I go and list the trade for the mushrooms online. Would say that, the assessment is true that this is USD trades?
    - TacticalCoder 13y ago
      It's not the same argument... I can buy food and cars and real-estate properties with USD. I can also buy BTC with USD which I can use to order stuff online or which I can use to convert back to USD... To buy food, cars and real-estate properties. The point GP is making is that once things make it into Gox, they can't get out: your USD become "Goxdollars" and your BTC become "Goxcoins". I don't know if Gox is going to resolve the issue but, in any case, it's certainly not the same argument. As of now you can't buy anything else than Goxdollars/Goxcoins with Goxcoins/Goxdollars. Hence the "fantasy trades".
  - commandar 13y ago
    This can be summed up as: through hyperbole.
  - dclusin 13y ago
    Gox's prices are off market because the market @ Mt. Gox is pricing in the fact that you can't cash out on that exchange. This happened to CampBX as well once they stopped ACH/WIRE withdraws. They were usually near bitstamp/btce/bitfinex/etc but once this occurred the price diverged from all the other venues where you can cash out. But you are correct, in that Mt. Gox prices are now entirely 100% fantasy because nobody can cash out anything.
jafaku 13y ago
Each exchange has its own circumstances that are reflected on the price. For example, it used to be difficult to get fiat into BTC-e, hence the price there was lower than the average (sell your BTC cheap now, or wait until someone wants to buy at the average price). To say that mtgox was manipulating the prices is an extraordinary claim and requires extraordinary proof, which you don't seem to have. A better explanation would be that they had problems with fiat withdrawals, probably due to ridiculous regulations and bureaucracy problems like the ones they suffered in the US, therefore the price was higher than the average (wait for your fiat, or get your expensive BTC today).

by pyalot2 13y ago

dclusin 13y ago

Could you please elaborate on your fantasy trades remark? I was aware of Mt. Gox fiat issues, and now the BTC hold. Were they accused of booking fictitious trades?

pyalot2 13y ago
Gox had a huge gap in its price to other exchanges. This gap came to be because Gox replaced USD with Goxdollars (a kind of currency that only exists inside of Gox). Therefore arbitrage was not capable of closing this gap, because Goxdollars could not be converted to USD. If you are trading Bitcoins for Goxdollars, that's fantasy trades. However this novel introduction of Goxdollars was now consequently followed by the introduction of the Goxcoin which marks the migration complete. Goxcoins cannot be converted to Bitcoins. However you can now trade Goxcoins vs. Goxdollars. All trades on Gox are now pure fantasy. Seeing as Gox is the Magic the gathering exchange, I find this strangely appropriate.
- dragontamer 13y ago
  Other people don't get it. You speak the truth. Every exchange has "GoxCoins" and "GoxDollars". It is necessary for any large scale bank or exchange to work. The creation of this fiction is not in of itself morally reprehensible... it is when the fiction no longer lines up with reality when issues arise. "GoxDollars" stopped being "like real dollars" when USD Withdrawals were hampered or stopped. "GoxCoins" just stopped being "like real Bitcoins" when BTC withdrawals stopped a few days ago.
- Anderkent 13y ago
  >If you are trading Bitcoins for Goxdollars, that's fantasy trades. Uh, no, it's real trades. That's the same argument as 'IF you're trading USD for BTC, it's fantasy trades!'
  - pyalot2 13y ago
    If you give me bitcoins, and I give you virtual magic mushrooms, and then I go and list the trade for the mushrooms online. Would say that, the assessment is true that this is USD trades?
  - TacticalCoder 13y ago
    It's not the same argument... I can buy food and cars and real-estate properties with USD. I can also buy BTC with USD which I can use to order stuff online or which I can use to convert back to USD... To buy food, cars and real-estate properties. The point GP is making is that once things make it into Gox, they can't get out: your USD become "Goxdollars" and your BTC become "Goxcoins". I don't know if Gox is going to resolve the issue but, in any case, it's certainly not the same argument. As of now you can't buy anything else than Goxdollars/Goxcoins with Goxcoins/Goxdollars. Hence the "fantasy trades".
- commandar 13y ago
  This can be summed up as: through hyperbole.
- dclusin 13y ago
  Gox's prices are off market because the market @ Mt. Gox is pricing in the fact that you can't cash out on that exchange. This happened to CampBX as well once they stopped ACH/WIRE withdraws. They were usually near bitstamp/btce/bitfinex/etc but once this occurred the price diverged from all the other venues where you can cash out. But you are correct, in that Mt. Gox prices are now entirely 100% fantasy because nobody can cash out anything.

jafaku 13y ago

Each exchange has its own circumstances that are reflected on the price. For example, it used to be difficult to get fiat into BTC-e, hence the price there was lower than the average (sell your BTC cheap now, or wait until someone wants to buy at the average price). To say that mtgox was manipulating the prices is an extraordinary claim and requires extraordinary proof, which you don't seem to have. A better explanation would be that they had problems with fiat withdrawals, probably due to ridiculous regulations and bureaucracy problems like the ones they suffered in the US, therefore the price was higher than the average (wait for your fiat, or get your expensive BTC today).