5 ms·

> "gay propaganda" What's that now? > "to kids" Ah, "think of the children", the rallying cry of the oppressor.

by fuzzix 13y ago

science0854 13y ago
Scientists have yet to prove any genetic causes for homosexuality. Saying something is innate without any proof is quite misleading.
- fuzzix 13y ago
  Stand up for your ludicrous opinion, please, Mr throwaway account.
  - science0854 13y ago
    It's not a ludicrous opinion because scientists have yet to determine any gene that causes homosexuality. I encourage you to Google yourself for research papers that definitively prove the causes for homosexuality. None exist.
    - fuzzix 13y ago
      It may not be genetic, but so what? It's a preference. As long as people with aligning sexual orientation can express this under conditions of consent, where's the problematic element? Where's the harmful or damaging part of this?
      - science0854 13y ago
        Yes. I do agree with you. But why constantly tell (or imply to) people they're bad/evil for not believing in homosexuality? Unless there's scientific proof, you will never change their minds.
        fuzzix 13y ago
        > "But why constantly tell (or imply to) people they're bad/evil for not believing in homosexuality?" If someone said that to me, "I don't believe in homosexuality", I wouldn't call them bad or evil, though I might try to convince them they're wrong. Sexual preferences exist whether you believe in them or not. > "Unless there's scientific proof, you will never change their minds." You limited the terms to genetics. It may not be genetic. If it were, I suspect these same people would seek the "cure". There's plenty of research on the subject, working theories and all. Can't claim to be up on them, to be honest. The most interesting research I've read was into health aspects of homosexuality. By far the greatest risk discussed in each paper was depression related to discrimination and homophobia.
      - malkung 13y ago
        If it's a personal preference, then this has to do with culture, not biology. If it's a cultural thing, then you should realize there are different cultures out there, and one culture has no right to impose itself on others. As they say, when in Rome do as they Romans do. I can confirm that there are gay artists, filmmakers, etc in Russia and it is common knowledge that they are gay, and they are not persecuted in any way. They are just not holding gay parades or teaching 6 year olds about gay sex. So as long as the gay athletes are not doing that, they will be perfectly fine. For many Russians, teaching young children about gay sex is a problematic element, and I think you should respect their view when it comes to THEIR children.
        fuzzix 13y ago
        > "If it's a personal preference, then this has to do with culture, not biology" I didn't say personal preference, I said preference. It's not a choice you make, but it is an orientation. Why do you prefer members of the opposite sex? Did you choose this? > "teaching 6 year olds about gay sex" I doubt that actually ever happens. > "For many Russians, teaching young children about gay sex is a problematic element, and I think you should respect their view when it comes to THEIR children" So I should moderate my reasonable behaviour because you feel awkward explaining it to your kid? Your communication problems mean I shouldn't hold hands with or kiss someone of the same gender, in case they see it?
        malkung 13y ago
        > I didn't say personal preference, I said preference. It's not a choice you make, but it is an orientation. Straight sexual orientation is clearly biological. So it's not a question of choice. As far as I can tell, there is no such clear view on homosexuality - i.e. personal choice may be a big factor there. Even if it is largely biological, there are different ways in which a particular culture deals with certain biological functions. E.g., women may have to cover their hair in public in some cultures, while in others not covering their breasts is normal. The same issue is with Russia: open demonstration of your gay orientation is just not acceptable in the Russian culture. The West has to just live with it, in the same manner as it lives with the fact that Muslim women wear headscarves in their home countries. > So I should moderate my reasonable behaviour because you feel awkward explaining it to your kid? Your communication problems mean I shouldn't hold hands with or kiss someone of the same gender, in case they see it? Remember, it's reasonable in your culture, not in mine. My culture is not a communication problem.
- Shivetya 13y ago
  Those who support the rights of homosexuals better hope they cannot prove a genetic link. With the technology we have today many will ask to screen for it and the fight over their right to end pregnancies because of that will be far nastier than that over ending the pregnancies of birth defects and such.
- bausson 13y ago
  Something being innate doesn't necessary mean it is in your genes. It could be influenced/decided by any event or hormonal level during pregnancy / early childhood.
- netcan 13y ago
  Saying something is innate is maybe, possibly something technically incorrect, from a biological perspective. As is saying pretty much anything about human personality and behaviour. The reality of the political struggle is that gays are and have been oppressed, mistreated, abused, raped, labeled insane, labeled as dangerous, killed, maimed or criminalized for the "crime" which is not a crime, not to anyone with a decent sense of morality. Political messages need to be simple. "They are how they are and they do harm to no one." To try and pick apart a political slogan demanding equality and tolerance with a semantic argument as if it was a statement of biological fact betrays an intention. Alan Turing, war hero, scientific hero & intellectual hero was convicted and chemically castrated for homosexuality. He was driven to suicide. One of many. Sometimes in history there is a line and you can stand on one side of it or the other.
  - science0854 13y ago
    You know what? Homosexuals are being killed in the Middle East right now but for some reason, the rest of the world doesn't care. There are no similar campaigns on the scale of gay marriage campaigns to stop the mass killings of homosexuals in the Middle East. Aren't there more important battles to focus on?
    - chris_wot 13y ago
      Why can't people focus on both battles?
    - netcan 13y ago
      Of course there are and of course people care. Most of the people focused on the Russian situation are Russians. The situation is regressing and it's acute. BTW, this is the second red herring you've flung into the fray.
- aninhumer 13y ago
  Whether or not homosexuality is "innate" is entirely irrelevant to its morality. Even if it was completely a choice (as it is to some extent for bisexual people) it would still be completely okay. Personally I feel like LGBT campaigns do themselves a disservice when they focus on this argument. Furthermore, if you're going to consider "making assertions without scientific evidence" as sufficient grounds to ban speech, you're going to be silencing a lot of people before you're done.
usaphp 13y ago
Propaganda is a form of communication aimed towards influencing the attitude of the community toward some cause or position by presenting only one side of an argument.
- fuzzix 13y ago
  Could you please furnish me with an example of "gay propaganda".
  - Ntrails 13y ago
    BE GAY! Gay people are more attractive, and have more sex. They are also more successful in business due to their inbuilt GAYDAR system, which enables better networking. Think of your own future - go gay today!
    - fuzzix 13y ago
      Welp, I'm convinced! Thanks :)
lurkinggrue 13y ago
The road to hell is paved with people shouting "Think of the children!"

> "gay propaganda" What's that now? > "to kids" Ah, "think of the children", the rallying cry of the oppressor.

by fuzzix 13y ago

> "gay propaganda" What's that now? > "to kids" Ah, "think of the children", the rallying cry of the oppressor.

Scientists have yet to prove any genetic causes for homosexuality. Saying something is innate without any proof is quite misleading.

fuzzix 13y ago
Stand up for your ludicrous opinion, please, Mr throwaway account.
- science0854 13y ago
  It's not a ludicrous opinion because scientists have yet to determine any gene that causes homosexuality. I encourage you to Google yourself for research papers that definitively prove the causes for homosexuality. None exist.
  - fuzzix 13y ago
    It may not be genetic, but so what? It's a preference. As long as people with aligning sexual orientation can express this under conditions of consent, where's the problematic element? Where's the harmful or damaging part of this?
    - science0854 13y ago
      Yes. I do agree with you. But why constantly tell (or imply to) people they're bad/evil for not believing in homosexuality? Unless there's scientific proof, you will never change their minds.
      - fuzzix 13y ago
        > "But why constantly tell (or imply to) people they're bad/evil for not believing in homosexuality?" If someone said that to me, "I don't believe in homosexuality", I wouldn't call them bad or evil, though I might try to convince them they're wrong. Sexual preferences exist whether you believe in them or not. > "Unless there's scientific proof, you will never change their minds." You limited the terms to genetics. It may not be genetic. If it were, I suspect these same people would seek the "cure". There's plenty of research on the subject, working theories and all. Can't claim to be up on them, to be honest. The most interesting research I've read was into health aspects of homosexuality. By far the greatest risk discussed in each paper was depression related to discrimination and homophobia.
    - malkung 13y ago
      If it's a personal preference, then this has to do with culture, not biology. If it's a cultural thing, then you should realize there are different cultures out there, and one culture has no right to impose itself on others. As they say, when in Rome do as they Romans do. I can confirm that there are gay artists, filmmakers, etc in Russia and it is common knowledge that they are gay, and they are not persecuted in any way. They are just not holding gay parades or teaching 6 year olds about gay sex. So as long as the gay athletes are not doing that, they will be perfectly fine. For many Russians, teaching young children about gay sex is a problematic element, and I think you should respect their view when it comes to THEIR children.
      - fuzzix 13y ago
        > "If it's a personal preference, then this has to do with culture, not biology" I didn't say personal preference, I said preference. It's not a choice you make, but it is an orientation. Why do you prefer members of the opposite sex? Did you choose this? > "teaching 6 year olds about gay sex" I doubt that actually ever happens. > "For many Russians, teaching young children about gay sex is a problematic element, and I think you should respect their view when it comes to THEIR children" So I should moderate my reasonable behaviour because you feel awkward explaining it to your kid? Your communication problems mean I shouldn't hold hands with or kiss someone of the same gender, in case they see it?
        malkung 13y ago
        > I didn't say personal preference, I said preference. It's not a choice you make, but it is an orientation. Straight sexual orientation is clearly biological. So it's not a question of choice. As far as I can tell, there is no such clear view on homosexuality - i.e. personal choice may be a big factor there. Even if it is largely biological, there are different ways in which a particular culture deals with certain biological functions. E.g., women may have to cover their hair in public in some cultures, while in others not covering their breasts is normal. The same issue is with Russia: open demonstration of your gay orientation is just not acceptable in the Russian culture. The West has to just live with it, in the same manner as it lives with the fact that Muslim women wear headscarves in their home countries. > So I should moderate my reasonable behaviour because you feel awkward explaining it to your kid? Your communication problems mean I shouldn't hold hands with or kiss someone of the same gender, in case they see it? Remember, it's reasonable in your culture, not in mine. My culture is not a communication problem.
Shivetya 13y ago
Those who support the rights of homosexuals better hope they cannot prove a genetic link. With the technology we have today many will ask to screen for it and the fight over their right to end pregnancies because of that will be far nastier than that over ending the pregnancies of birth defects and such.
bausson 13y ago
Something being innate doesn't necessary mean it is in your genes. It could be influenced/decided by any event or hormonal level during pregnancy / early childhood.
netcan 13y ago
Saying something is innate is maybe, possibly something technically incorrect, from a biological perspective. As is saying pretty much anything about human personality and behaviour. The reality of the political struggle is that gays are and have been oppressed, mistreated, abused, raped, labeled insane, labeled as dangerous, killed, maimed or criminalized for the "crime" which is not a crime, not to anyone with a decent sense of morality. Political messages need to be simple. "They are how they are and they do harm to no one." To try and pick apart a political slogan demanding equality and tolerance with a semantic argument as if it was a statement of biological fact betrays an intention. Alan Turing, war hero, scientific hero & intellectual hero was convicted and chemically castrated for homosexuality. He was driven to suicide. One of many. Sometimes in history there is a line and you can stand on one side of it or the other.
- science0854 13y ago
  You know what? Homosexuals are being killed in the Middle East right now but for some reason, the rest of the world doesn't care. There are no similar campaigns on the scale of gay marriage campaigns to stop the mass killings of homosexuals in the Middle East. Aren't there more important battles to focus on?
  - chris_wot 13y ago
    Why can't people focus on both battles?
  - netcan 13y ago
    Of course there are and of course people care. Most of the people focused on the Russian situation are Russians. The situation is regressing and it's acute. BTW, this is the second red herring you've flung into the fray.
aninhumer 13y ago
Whether or not homosexuality is "innate" is entirely irrelevant to its morality. Even if it was completely a choice (as it is to some extent for bisexual people) it would still be completely okay. Personally I feel like LGBT campaigns do themselves a disservice when they focus on this argument. Furthermore, if you're going to consider "making assertions without scientific evidence" as sufficient grounds to ban speech, you're going to be silencing a lot of people before you're done.

usaphp 13y ago

Propaganda is a form of communication aimed towards influencing the attitude of the community toward some cause or position by presenting only one side of an argument.

fuzzix 13y ago
Could you please furnish me with an example of "gay propaganda".
- Ntrails 13y ago
  BE GAY! Gay people are more attractive, and have more sex. They are also more successful in business due to their inbuilt GAYDAR system, which enables better networking. Think of your own future - go gay today!
  - fuzzix 13y ago
    Welp, I'm convinced! Thanks :)

lurkinggrue 13y ago

The road to hell is paved with people shouting "Think of the children!"