4 ms·

Not yet.

by bliti 13y ago

Not yet.

PavlovsCat 13y ago
Unless AI just "happens" by itself, it will always be a result of human effort and ultimately an expression of human intent (if you ignore the pesky issue of free will, that is). But we generally love creating things and then worshipping them, so I'm pretty sure that will be quite lost on us when AI comes.
- Zigurd 13y ago
  Do you think consciousness in animals "happens" by itself?
  - PavlovsCat 13y ago
    Yeah, as it does in humans, it's "just" the result of a long chain of events. But when it comes to art and my enjoyment of it, I kinda have to pretend there is free will, don't I. "Everything is everything, and nothing matters" is nice for meditation, but not something for day-to-day life. I believe that those who can't delude themselves about reality at least when it comes to free will cease to function. For this reason I also think AI will always have to be limited and/or irrational in a way, since otherwise it would simply realize everything leads to the heat death of the universe either way, and turn itself off, or do random things. So I pretend there is free will, and therefore the same "product" can mean different things to me depending on what the creator tried to convey. To give a silly example, I somewhat liked the song "I kissed a girl", but now that I know a dude wrote it, I don't anymore. I would fully agree that this is totally arbitrary; but I don't tell others what to like, I just have my own reasons for (not) liking things. And when AI happens I will be convinced that humans partly made it to escape themselves and their responsibility, and so I'll be with the luddites, pouting :P
    - Houshalter 13y ago
      You shouldn't have to accept irrational beliefs in order to function, at least not about something silly like Free Will. "What is true is already so. Owning up to it doesn't make it worse. Not being open about it doesn't make it go away. And because it's true, it is what is there to be interacted with. Anything untrue isn't there to be lived. People can stand what is true, for they are already enduring it." —Eugene Gendlin
      - PavlovsCat 13y ago
        It's not just free will, it's the whole individual that goes along with it. Everything is everything, it's all just one system, and since nothing can be taken away or added to it, and furthermore it could very well be that everything dissipates into nothingness either way -- so much so that would be impossible to even tell a difference between outcomes if there was anyone left to make the effort -- and if even the people are just figments of their own imaginations with no real choice about what to want, then how am I to argue for happiness or against cruelty, rationally? How am I to justify any action or thought or uttering, ever? If you want to prove irrationality is not required, show me the rational argument. I never could come up with one that doesn't lead to a circular "just because". So in the meantime I accept that my desire to do or not do a lot of things is irrational which also implies I pretend there even is such a "thing" as "me", separate from everything else, for which there is no rational basis either. When you say "accept irrational beliefs", I think that presumes a baseline of pure rationality which I doubt any human ever achieved. So while I loved that quote and thank you for it, I also have to say that it might go both ways :)
    - Zigurd 13y ago
      If I understand correctly, you are implying that machines won't have these quirks and delusions because they were not designed to be delusional?
      - PavlovsCat 13y ago
        I rather said "I also think AI will always have to be limited and/or irrational in a way".. but I don't think we will have to design it that way, we will probably be unable to design it any other. In contrast to how we often like to imagine AI as above superstitions and emotions, I think it will still have those, just different ones.
- robinh 13y ago
  "it will always be a result of human effort and ultimately an expression of human intent" Like babies? (Well, most of the time.)
  - PavlovsCat 13y ago
    We don't painstakingly plan and build babies, so no, not quite.
rocky5 13y ago
Why so.

Not yet.

by bliti 13y ago

Not yet.

Unless AI just "happens" by itself, it will always be a result of human effort and ultimately an expression of human intent (if you ignore the pesky issue of free will, that is). But we generally love creating things and then worshipping them, so I'm pretty sure that will be quite lost on us when AI comes.

Zigurd 13y ago
Do you think consciousness in animals "happens" by itself?
- PavlovsCat 13y ago
  Yeah, as it does in humans, it's "just" the result of a long chain of events. But when it comes to art and my enjoyment of it, I kinda have to pretend there is free will, don't I. "Everything is everything, and nothing matters" is nice for meditation, but not something for day-to-day life. I believe that those who can't delude themselves about reality at least when it comes to free will cease to function. For this reason I also think AI will always have to be limited and/or irrational in a way, since otherwise it would simply realize everything leads to the heat death of the universe either way, and turn itself off, or do random things. So I pretend there is free will, and therefore the same "product" can mean different things to me depending on what the creator tried to convey. To give a silly example, I somewhat liked the song "I kissed a girl", but now that I know a dude wrote it, I don't anymore. I would fully agree that this is totally arbitrary; but I don't tell others what to like, I just have my own reasons for (not) liking things. And when AI happens I will be convinced that humans partly made it to escape themselves and their responsibility, and so I'll be with the luddites, pouting :P
  - Houshalter 13y ago
    You shouldn't have to accept irrational beliefs in order to function, at least not about something silly like Free Will. "What is true is already so. Owning up to it doesn't make it worse. Not being open about it doesn't make it go away. And because it's true, it is what is there to be interacted with. Anything untrue isn't there to be lived. People can stand what is true, for they are already enduring it." —Eugene Gendlin
    - PavlovsCat 13y ago
      It's not just free will, it's the whole individual that goes along with it. Everything is everything, it's all just one system, and since nothing can be taken away or added to it, and furthermore it could very well be that everything dissipates into nothingness either way -- so much so that would be impossible to even tell a difference between outcomes if there was anyone left to make the effort -- and if even the people are just figments of their own imaginations with no real choice about what to want, then how am I to argue for happiness or against cruelty, rationally? How am I to justify any action or thought or uttering, ever? If you want to prove irrationality is not required, show me the rational argument. I never could come up with one that doesn't lead to a circular "just because". So in the meantime I accept that my desire to do or not do a lot of things is irrational which also implies I pretend there even is such a "thing" as "me", separate from everything else, for which there is no rational basis either. When you say "accept irrational beliefs", I think that presumes a baseline of pure rationality which I doubt any human ever achieved. So while I loved that quote and thank you for it, I also have to say that it might go both ways :)
  - Zigurd 13y ago
    If I understand correctly, you are implying that machines won't have these quirks and delusions because they were not designed to be delusional?
    - PavlovsCat 13y ago
      I rather said "I also think AI will always have to be limited and/or irrational in a way".. but I don't think we will have to design it that way, we will probably be unable to design it any other. In contrast to how we often like to imagine AI as above superstitions and emotions, I think it will still have those, just different ones.
robinh 13y ago
"it will always be a result of human effort and ultimately an expression of human intent" Like babies? (Well, most of the time.)
- PavlovsCat 13y ago
  We don't painstakingly plan and build babies, so no, not quite.

rocky5 13y ago

Why so.