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Utah, while prohibiting gay marriage, nevertheless still let gay people meet (gatherings), distribute information, and speak publicly about the topic.

by aray 13y ago

magicalist 13y ago
And have pride parades[1] [1] http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/jun/03/mormons-gay-pride-salt-lake-city http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/jun/03/mormons-gay-pri...
osipov 13y ago
Russia allows these things too except for the part of getting minors involved. EDIT: The Wikipedia article is full of hedging on this topic, e.g. - "According to _some commentators_..." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Russia#Bans_on_.22homosexual_propaganda_to_minors.22 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Russia#Bans_on_.... - "Under the statute it is _effectively illegal_", http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Russia#National_laws http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Russia#National_... Since when did journalists become legal scholars? Shouldn't we evaluate laws based on legal outcomes, not on a journalist's speculation?
- Lazare 13y ago
  This is absolutely false. From Wikipedia (with many, many, detailed citations and sources): "Under the statute it is effectively illegal to hold any gay pride events, speak in defense of gay rights, or say that gay relationships are equal to heterosexual relationships." You cannot hold a pride parade (a minor might see it); you cannot distribute brochures (a minor might read it); you cannot have a website (a minor might see it). The freedoms we take for granted in the West, limited though they may be, simply do not exist in Russia. Every single item that mentioned as something you can do in Utah is something you cannot do in Russia, by law. And that's not even touching on the more restrictive laws in many regions and cities, nor on the surge in hate crimes and other unofficial repression. Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Russia#Bans_on_gay_propaganda http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Russia#Bans_on_g... (Although really, just google it; there's tons of info.)
- Lazare 13y ago
  You're getting a lot of downvotes, but I see most people aren't bothering to explain your error to you. Let me help: We're concerned with the amount of oppression actually occurring in Russia, and with the actual life of actual gay men and women in Russia. Your comments and links focus on the laws, but it is very possible to pass a wonderful sounding law and then ignore it in practice. In fact, Russia's predecessor, the Soviet Union, was famous for doing just this. Their constitution guaranteed a wide range of freedoms which were never actually enjoyed by the subjects of the Soviet empire. If we want to evaluate the drafting of a law, we would of course turn to a legal scholar; their views on phrasing are critical. But if you want to know about life on the street, you turn to a journalist. You stress the word "effectively" in the phrase "effectively illegal", as if this undermines the importance. It does nothing of the kind, because we want to know if you can hold an actual gay pride parade in Moscow (which you cannot), not whether any given law, if read and applied fairly, would ban gay pride parades (which it arguably does not). And I see this same mistake (trying to analyse the laws rather than their application) repeatedly in your comments and in the sources you cite. You're effectively arguing that it doesn't matter if a law is being used to repress and hurt people, if you can find someone arguing that the law shouldn't be used this way. As if this magically makes the actual harm to actual people go away. But this is nonsense. At the end of the day, their are gay pride parades in, eg, Utah, but not in, eg, Moscow. And everything you've said and linked to does not address this core point, that homosexuals are being brutally repressed in Russia, and not in the US.
  - mlvljr 13y ago
    Gay pride in Moscow? You must be nuts, honestly :) Neither do we want it here, nor feel the necessity to allow, either practically, or legislatively, period. As for the alleged atrocities happening to those against whom the law is aimed, let's read the paper linked.
    - JulianMorrison 13y ago
      You have no right to stop it. And your lack of "want" is disgusting homophobia.
- JulianMorrison 13y ago
  Some minors are gay. Now they are criminalized for even talking about themselves. See the recent example (which they backed off from due to international pressure)[1]. This is an immensely oppressive law, it needs to end immediately, and defending it is unconscionable. [1] http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2014/02/06/russia-punishment-halted-against-middle-school-girl-accused-of-spreading-gay-propaganda/ http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2014/02/06/russia-punishment-halte...

Utah, while prohibiting gay marriage, nevertheless still let gay people meet (gatherings), distribute information, and speak publicly about the topic.

by aray 13y ago

Utah, while prohibiting gay marriage, nevertheless still let gay people meet (gatherings), distribute information, and speak publicly about the topic.

magicalist 13y ago

And have pride parades[1] [1] http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/jun/03/mormons-gay-pride-salt-lake-city http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/jun/03/mormons-gay-pri...

osipov 13y ago

Russia allows these things too except for the part of getting minors involved. EDIT: The Wikipedia article is full of hedging on this topic, e.g. - "According to _some commentators_..." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Russia#Bans_on_.22homosexual_propaganda_to_minors.22 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Russia#Bans_on_.... - "Under the statute it is _effectively illegal_", http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Russia#National_laws http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Russia#National_... Since when did journalists become legal scholars? Shouldn't we evaluate laws based on legal outcomes, not on a journalist's speculation?

Lazare 13y ago
This is absolutely false. From Wikipedia (with many, many, detailed citations and sources): "Under the statute it is effectively illegal to hold any gay pride events, speak in defense of gay rights, or say that gay relationships are equal to heterosexual relationships." You cannot hold a pride parade (a minor might see it); you cannot distribute brochures (a minor might read it); you cannot have a website (a minor might see it). The freedoms we take for granted in the West, limited though they may be, simply do not exist in Russia. Every single item that mentioned as something you can do in Utah is something you cannot do in Russia, by law. And that's not even touching on the more restrictive laws in many regions and cities, nor on the surge in hate crimes and other unofficial repression. Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Russia#Bans_on_gay_propaganda http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Russia#Bans_on_g... (Although really, just google it; there's tons of info.)
Lazare 13y ago
You're getting a lot of downvotes, but I see most people aren't bothering to explain your error to you. Let me help: We're concerned with the amount of oppression actually occurring in Russia, and with the actual life of actual gay men and women in Russia. Your comments and links focus on the laws, but it is very possible to pass a wonderful sounding law and then ignore it in practice. In fact, Russia's predecessor, the Soviet Union, was famous for doing just this. Their constitution guaranteed a wide range of freedoms which were never actually enjoyed by the subjects of the Soviet empire. If we want to evaluate the drafting of a law, we would of course turn to a legal scholar; their views on phrasing are critical. But if you want to know about life on the street, you turn to a journalist. You stress the word "effectively" in the phrase "effectively illegal", as if this undermines the importance. It does nothing of the kind, because we want to know if you can hold an actual gay pride parade in Moscow (which you cannot), not whether any given law, if read and applied fairly, would ban gay pride parades (which it arguably does not). And I see this same mistake (trying to analyse the laws rather than their application) repeatedly in your comments and in the sources you cite. You're effectively arguing that it doesn't matter if a law is being used to repress and hurt people, if you can find someone arguing that the law shouldn't be used this way. As if this magically makes the actual harm to actual people go away. But this is nonsense. At the end of the day, their are gay pride parades in, eg, Utah, but not in, eg, Moscow. And everything you've said and linked to does not address this core point, that homosexuals are being brutally repressed in Russia, and not in the US.
- mlvljr 13y ago
  Gay pride in Moscow? You must be nuts, honestly :) Neither do we want it here, nor feel the necessity to allow, either practically, or legislatively, period. As for the alleged atrocities happening to those against whom the law is aimed, let's read the paper linked.
  - JulianMorrison 13y ago
    You have no right to stop it. And your lack of "want" is disgusting homophobia.
JulianMorrison 13y ago
Some minors are gay. Now they are criminalized for even talking about themselves. See the recent example (which they backed off from due to international pressure)[1]. This is an immensely oppressive law, it needs to end immediately, and defending it is unconscionable. [1] http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2014/02/06/russia-punishment-halted-against-middle-school-girl-accused-of-spreading-gay-propaganda/ http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2014/02/06/russia-punishment-halte...