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Modern, first-world standards cannot be applied to the third world... That's part of the problem, though, isn't it? The tremendous migration of manufacturing

Modern, first-world standards cannot be applied to the third world... That's part of the problem, though, isn't it? The tremendous migration of manufacturing jobs to third world countries has been in large part because they are not limited to a 40 hour work week and first world safety standards. Of course it's cheaper to manufacture in China, their regulations are a lot more lax than ours, although that may be changing. I, too grew up in a Third World country. My parents were missionaries in Central America in the 80's. I grew up playing soccer with children who's bellies were bloated from parasites and could not afford shoes. I've worked in communities that were essentially indentured servants to the tomato packing industry. The tomato company owned the housing, ran the schools, provided plumbing, etc.. to their workers. The employees were willing to put up with indentured servitude, because on a certain level because it was better than starving. It was better for their children to get a 6th grade education and then go off to pick tomatoes than to have no education at all. Why did that happen? So we can have tomatoes at our local grocery store for $1 a pound. I agree that it is better for the people in the third world to have jobs rather than not have jobs, but I'm pretty conflicted about the entire situation. Starving children, vs children working 16 hours a day in a tomato field? That's not a good choice to have to make.

Tichy 17y ago
It certainly is not all clear cut to decide, but I tend to think that competition is the only way to solve these things. If the economy where stronger in 3rd world countries, there would be more competition for workers. Therefore the companies hiring would have to offer better conditions to keep the workers. I guess that is assuming an open market, too. It does not quite apply to dictatorships and slavery. Unless you count "flee to a neighboring country" as an option, which it probably isn't in most cases. Edit: I guess even slavery does not completely invalidate the concept. If demand was high enough, prices for slaves would rise. Eventually it would be high enough for slave owners to sell, and effectively the new owners would have to offer freedom as a price. Also neighboring countries would be willing to accept refugees if they had a high demand for labor.
- Tangurena 17y ago
  > Also neighboring countries would be willing to accept refugees if they had a high demand for labor. Japan, being as nationalistic and xenophobic as they are, chose to invent and develop robots rather than allow as many foreigners into their country as was "needed."
  - Tichy 17y ago
    OK - exceptions confirm the rule, I guess ;-)
DanielBMarkham 17y ago
starving children, vs children working 16 hours a day in a tomato field? That's not a good choice to have to make. I'd be careful where you draw the line in your judgment. For instance, the next generation of people will start with a 6th grade education and a minimum standard of living. Their challenge is to move the goalposts further. That's just how the rest of the world did it, in fact, starting off with child and virtual slave factory labor and slowly moving to better and better conditions. If you've got some kind of shortcut to make it happen inside of one generation, I'd love to hear it.
- iamelgringo 17y ago
  Are you trying to say that child labor is a good thing? The point I was trying to make, albeit not too successfully was that it's a difficult situation, and there aren't a whole lot of great options for people in those situations.
  - DanielBMarkham 17y ago
    I'm trying to say that depending on where you draw the line, you can make all sorts of moral judgments that may not turn out to be true when drawing a line in a different place. Take the invasion of France in WWII. The Allies killed over 14 thousand French civilians in bombing in preparation for the invasion. Would you say that's a good thing? It's obviously an awful thing, no matter how you slice it. But looking at the longer picture, sometimes good things come out of bad things. This was the case for the invasion of France, and I believe this is also the case for child labor and sweatshops in third world countries. That doesn't make bad things into good things, that just means that context is important.
biohacker42 17y ago
Starving children, vs children working 16 hours a day in a tomato field? That's not a good choice to have to make. I'm pretty sure it IS an easy choice. B is clearly the correct answer. Over time it will get better but even if it DOESN'T, even if it onlways comes down to: A) Starve or B) 16hrs in a farm field. B is the easy right answer. Now option C is something that's going to take a lot more then simply buying more expensive tomatoes.

Tichy 17y ago

It certainly is not all clear cut to decide, but I tend to think that competition is the only way to solve these things. If the economy where stronger in 3rd world countries, there would be more competition for workers. Therefore the companies hiring would have to offer better conditions to keep the workers. I guess that is assuming an open market, too. It does not quite apply to dictatorships and slavery. Unless you count "flee to a neighboring country" as an option, which it probably isn't in most cases. Edit: I guess even slavery does not completely invalidate the concept. If demand was high enough, prices for slaves would rise. Eventually it would be high enough for slave owners to sell, and effectively the new owners would have to offer freedom as a price. Also neighboring countries would be willing to accept refugees if they had a high demand for labor.

Tangurena 17y ago
> Also neighboring countries would be willing to accept refugees if they had a high demand for labor. Japan, being as nationalistic and xenophobic as they are, chose to invent and develop robots rather than allow as many foreigners into their country as was "needed."
- Tichy 17y ago
  OK - exceptions confirm the rule, I guess ;-)

DanielBMarkham 17y ago

starving children, vs children working 16 hours a day in a tomato field? That's not a good choice to have to make. I'd be careful where you draw the line in your judgment. For instance, the next generation of people will start with a 6th grade education and a minimum standard of living. Their challenge is to move the goalposts further. That's just how the rest of the world did it, in fact, starting off with child and virtual slave factory labor and slowly moving to better and better conditions. If you've got some kind of shortcut to make it happen inside of one generation, I'd love to hear it.

iamelgringo 17y ago
Are you trying to say that child labor is a good thing? The point I was trying to make, albeit not too successfully was that it's a difficult situation, and there aren't a whole lot of great options for people in those situations.
- DanielBMarkham 17y ago
  I'm trying to say that depending on where you draw the line, you can make all sorts of moral judgments that may not turn out to be true when drawing a line in a different place. Take the invasion of France in WWII. The Allies killed over 14 thousand French civilians in bombing in preparation for the invasion. Would you say that's a good thing? It's obviously an awful thing, no matter how you slice it. But looking at the longer picture, sometimes good things come out of bad things. This was the case for the invasion of France, and I believe this is also the case for child labor and sweatshops in third world countries. That doesn't make bad things into good things, that just means that context is important.

biohacker42 17y ago

Starving children, vs children working 16 hours a day in a tomato field? That's not a good choice to have to make. I'm pretty sure it IS an easy choice. B is clearly the correct answer. Over time it will get better but even if it DOESN'T, even if it onlways comes down to: A) Starve or B) 16hrs in a farm field. B is the easy right answer. Now option C is something that's going to take a lot more then simply buying more expensive tomatoes.