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This is essentialy the same as: Minister of health is not a surgeon. I do think there is actually a need for a political party whose MP's are actually made up

by JazCE 13y ago

This is essentialy the same as: Minister of health is not a surgeon. I do think there is actually a need for a political party whose MP's are actually made up on members of the professions they'll eventually represent (By which I mean they won't represent the actual industry, but the people, but you would have a minister of education who has actual practice of being a teacher or something).

choult 13y ago
The Minister of Health doesn't go around stating that every schoolchild should learn how to operate on people...
- mattmanser 13y ago
  In a day.
- arethuza 13y ago
  Don't give them any ideas on how to "improve" the NHS!
- w0utert 13y ago
  >> The Minister of Health doesn't go around stating that every schoolchild should learn how to operate on people... Or how it would 'only take a day' to learn how to operate on people, for that matter. I'm not so much surprised that someone in her position doesn't know how to code (she doesnt't have to, really), but at the very least I expect you to have a basic understanding of the depth and breadth of the topic, and not make sweeping, distracting and confusing statements like this. A little preparation, just a few hours of talking to people who are knowledgeable on the topic, would go a long way not making a fool out of yourself.
  - tragic 13y ago
    >> The Minister of Health doesn't go around stating that every schoolchild should learn how to operate on people... > Or how it would 'only take a day' to learn how to operate on people, for that matter. ...Nor does he lack even a layperson's grasp of what surgery is. I feel rather sorry for her, though - aren't politicians supposed to be briefed for public appearances nowadays so things like this Just Don't Happen?
- moron4hire 13y ago
  Probably does think that every school child should learn biology, though, with a few labs involving animal specimen dissections. We aren't talking about "teaching kids to develop software". This is "teaching kids to put code in a text editor and run a compiler on it."
deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
desas 13y ago
Lottie Dexter is not a politician, she's a civil servant. She should have been appointed based on her professional neutrality and ability to do the job, a substantial part of which appears to be to lead a team promoting how to learn programming.
- arethuza 13y ago
  I don't think she is a civil servant - she is described as "Director" of the Million Jobs Campaign - no idea what the legal status of that is (couldn't find it as a charity or a limited company). Also, the idea that civil servants are appointed based on "ability to do the job" is, for lack of a better term, amusing. NB The UK Civil Service is precisely the kind of organization that I suspect Michael Young had in mind when he coined the much-abused term "meritocracy": http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2001/jun/29/comment http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2001/jun/29/comment
  - true_religion 13y ago
    Desas is talking about the way the world should be, not the way the world is.
    - arethuza 13y ago
      Ahhh - I have failed to detect sarcasm, I will surrender my nationality.
WilliamMayor 13y ago
I've had this conversation with a friend of mine the other day and he raised an interesting point. When the NHS was first being proposed the doctors at the time were strongly against it. The Health Secretary (Bevan I think) just flat refused to listen to what the doctors were telling him. He told them that it didn't matter what their complaints were, he was going to start a national health service. If we had a system where you had to be an expert in a field before you could be in government then we would lose things like this. We would also lose problems with idiots running things (cough Gove cough). Overall though, we would never have change, our elected officials would only ever vote to maintain the status quo. Additionally, we vote for people to represent us in government, I don't know that doctors could ever truly represent my views on health care. I would just like to add a note that none of the things that I've represented as facts above have been checked. I learnt them in the pub, they might be wrong. Let me know (nicely).
- czr80 13y ago
  Wikipedia agrees with you: On the "appointed day", 5 July 1948, having overcome political opposition from both the Conservative Party and from within his own party, and after a dramatic showdown with the British Medical Association, which had threatened to derail the National Health Service scheme before it had even begun, as medical practitioners continued to withhold their support just months before the launch of the service, Bevan's National Health Service Act of 1946 came into force. After 18 months of ongoing dispute between the Ministry of Health and the BMA, Bevan finally managed to win over the support of the vast majority of the medical profession by offering a couple of minor concessions, but without compromising on the fundamental principles of his NHS proposals. Bevan later gave the famous quote that, in order to broker the deal, he had "stuffed their mouths with gold". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aneurin_Bevan https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aneurin_Bevan
yen223 13y ago
That's a fundamental problem with modern democracy - it doesn't optimize for talent, it optimizes for charisma.
- arethuza 13y ago
  Consider Clement Attlee, possibly the most influential PM of the 20th century (yes, even more so than Churchill or Thatcher) was fabulously uncharismatic being described by Thatcher as "all substance and no show": http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-1194059/A-giant-man-Clem-Attlee-stood-decency-duty--stark-contrast-todays-MPs.html http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-1194059/A-giant-ma...
  - yen223 13y ago
    "...when an interviewer asked if he had any thoughts about the coming general election, replied simply: 'No.'" I need to have a beer with this guy.
    - arethuza 13y ago
      I can recommend "Live from Downing Street" by Nick Robinson - it contrasts the media styles of all of the PMs (at least since there has been a "media" reporting on Parliament): http://www.amazon.co.uk/Live-Downing-Street-Nick-Robinson/dp/0857500007 http://www.amazon.co.uk/Live-Downing-Street-Nick-Robinson/dp... Personally, I think this country is long overdue a Attlee, Bevan or even a Thatcher - leaders who actually believed in something.
  - zbyszek 13y ago
    The famous jibe is along the lines of "An empty taxi drew up outside 10 Downing Street and Clement Attlee got out", attributed to Winston Churchill, but I think he denied it.
    - gaius 13y ago
      Churchill described Atlee as a modest man with much to be modest about.
colin_jack 13y ago
> This is essentialy the same as: Minister of health is not a surgeon. Its more that she doesn't even know what a surgeon does but thinks you can train a surgeon up in a day.
TheCoelacanth 13y ago
I wouldn't expect the minister of health to have a level of knowledge of medicine comparable to that of a practicing medical professional. However, I would expect them to have a level of knowledge that goes significantly beyond what is taught to school-children.

by JazCE 13y ago

choult 13y ago

The Minister of Health doesn't go around stating that every schoolchild should learn how to operate on people...

mattmanser 13y ago
In a day.
arethuza 13y ago
Don't give them any ideas on how to "improve" the NHS!
w0utert 13y ago
>> The Minister of Health doesn't go around stating that every schoolchild should learn how to operate on people... Or how it would 'only take a day' to learn how to operate on people, for that matter. I'm not so much surprised that someone in her position doesn't know how to code (she doesnt't have to, really), but at the very least I expect you to have a basic understanding of the depth and breadth of the topic, and not make sweeping, distracting and confusing statements like this. A little preparation, just a few hours of talking to people who are knowledgeable on the topic, would go a long way not making a fool out of yourself.
- tragic 13y ago
  >> The Minister of Health doesn't go around stating that every schoolchild should learn how to operate on people... > Or how it would 'only take a day' to learn how to operate on people, for that matter. ...Nor does he lack even a layperson's grasp of what surgery is. I feel rather sorry for her, though - aren't politicians supposed to be briefed for public appearances nowadays so things like this Just Don't Happen?
moron4hire 13y ago
Probably does think that every school child should learn biology, though, with a few labs involving animal specimen dissections. We aren't talking about "teaching kids to develop software". This is "teaching kids to put code in a text editor and run a compiler on it."

deleted 13y ago

[deleted]

desas 13y ago

Lottie Dexter is not a politician, she's a civil servant. She should have been appointed based on her professional neutrality and ability to do the job, a substantial part of which appears to be to lead a team promoting how to learn programming.

arethuza 13y ago
I don't think she is a civil servant - she is described as "Director" of the Million Jobs Campaign - no idea what the legal status of that is (couldn't find it as a charity or a limited company). Also, the idea that civil servants are appointed based on "ability to do the job" is, for lack of a better term, amusing. NB The UK Civil Service is precisely the kind of organization that I suspect Michael Young had in mind when he coined the much-abused term "meritocracy": http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2001/jun/29/comment http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2001/jun/29/comment
- true_religion 13y ago
  Desas is talking about the way the world should be, not the way the world is.
  - arethuza 13y ago
    Ahhh - I have failed to detect sarcasm, I will surrender my nationality.

WilliamMayor 13y ago

I've had this conversation with a friend of mine the other day and he raised an interesting point. When the NHS was first being proposed the doctors at the time were strongly against it. The Health Secretary (Bevan I think) just flat refused to listen to what the doctors were telling him. He told them that it didn't matter what their complaints were, he was going to start a national health service. If we had a system where you had to be an expert in a field before you could be in government then we would lose things like this. We would also lose problems with idiots running things (cough Gove cough). Overall though, we would never have change, our elected officials would only ever vote to maintain the status quo. Additionally, we vote for people to represent us in government, I don't know that doctors could ever truly represent my views on health care. I would just like to add a note that none of the things that I've represented as facts above have been checked. I learnt them in the pub, they might be wrong. Let me know (nicely).

czr80 13y ago
Wikipedia agrees with you: On the "appointed day", 5 July 1948, having overcome political opposition from both the Conservative Party and from within his own party, and after a dramatic showdown with the British Medical Association, which had threatened to derail the National Health Service scheme before it had even begun, as medical practitioners continued to withhold their support just months before the launch of the service, Bevan's National Health Service Act of 1946 came into force. After 18 months of ongoing dispute between the Ministry of Health and the BMA, Bevan finally managed to win over the support of the vast majority of the medical profession by offering a couple of minor concessions, but without compromising on the fundamental principles of his NHS proposals. Bevan later gave the famous quote that, in order to broker the deal, he had "stuffed their mouths with gold". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aneurin_Bevan https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aneurin_Bevan

yen223 13y ago

That's a fundamental problem with modern democracy - it doesn't optimize for talent, it optimizes for charisma.

arethuza 13y ago
Consider Clement Attlee, possibly the most influential PM of the 20th century (yes, even more so than Churchill or Thatcher) was fabulously uncharismatic being described by Thatcher as "all substance and no show": http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-1194059/A-giant-man-Clem-Attlee-stood-decency-duty--stark-contrast-todays-MPs.html http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-1194059/A-giant-ma...
- yen223 13y ago
  "...when an interviewer asked if he had any thoughts about the coming general election, replied simply: 'No.'" I need to have a beer with this guy.
  - arethuza 13y ago
    I can recommend "Live from Downing Street" by Nick Robinson - it contrasts the media styles of all of the PMs (at least since there has been a "media" reporting on Parliament): http://www.amazon.co.uk/Live-Downing-Street-Nick-Robinson/dp/0857500007 http://www.amazon.co.uk/Live-Downing-Street-Nick-Robinson/dp... Personally, I think this country is long overdue a Attlee, Bevan or even a Thatcher - leaders who actually believed in something.
- zbyszek 13y ago
  The famous jibe is along the lines of "An empty taxi drew up outside 10 Downing Street and Clement Attlee got out", attributed to Winston Churchill, but I think he denied it.
  - gaius 13y ago
    Churchill described Atlee as a modest man with much to be modest about.

colin_jack 13y ago

> This is essentialy the same as: Minister of health is not a surgeon. Its more that she doesn't even know what a surgeon does but thinks you can train a surgeon up in a day.

TheCoelacanth 13y ago

I wouldn't expect the minister of health to have a level of knowledge of medicine comparable to that of a practicing medical professional. However, I would expect them to have a level of knowledge that goes significantly beyond what is taught to school-children.