9 ms·

Wasn't this the country that wanted to be part of the European Union? When they said that, I thought they were going to take steps in the right direction. But y

by mahouse 13y ago

Wasn't this the country that wanted to be part of the European Union? When they said that, I thought they were going to take steps in the right direction. But years have passed and that's obviously not the case.

royprins 13y ago
Relation status: It's complicated. They pushed for EU membership when their economy was in shambles. It seemed like an economic necessity for which they were (sort of) willing to make changes. The opinions within the EU itself were always diverse, but what counted is that Turkey was a strategic and economic asset. Moreover it was a place where the EU could 'do good' with their superior moral values (sarcasm intended). The first contribution of the EU was to keep the AKP in power. Every previous Islamic party was either outlawed of removed from power by the military. Both the army and the supreme court decided against that, because that would mean Turkey would never join the EU (which they needed at that time). Turkey dragged its feet in making changes, likely because they were not so convinced the EU has superior morality. Meanwhile Turkey rebounded economically and the role within the region grew. It also saw Romania a Bulgaria admitted into the EU while these countries did not even live up to the economic demands of joining. When Erdogan took full control, several things happened. Corruption went rampant and civil liberties were restricted. The country is being islamized. These things led to the Gezi Park protests and a diminished confidence from investors. Funny thing is that the more progressive part of the population only now starts to realize that EU membership could result in better civil rights. Meanwhile the EU keeps broadcasting mixed signals. They criticized Erdogan but let him get away with attacking and lying to him own people. France and Sweden are among the strongest advocates of Turkish membership. Sweden has the strongest civil rights tradition and France has the strongest separation of church and state. The idea still seems to be: "when they come into contact with our superior standards, they will change accordingly". My opinion? That is an arrogant thought and it will not work. It did not work for immigration waves and it certainly won't work for 75 million Turks. The EU will not change Turkey, but Turkey will change the EU.
- waps 13y ago
  The EU commission (which is the unelected organisation that actually decides) simply wants power, so if Turkey wants to join and play Trojan horse, they will certainly let them. Because of this, and regardless of the Turkey issue, can we please stop referrring to Europa, or the European Union as "democratic" ? It's not. Let's just stop pretending.
  - tomp 13y ago
    > The EU commission (which is the unelected organisation What are you talking about? It's elected, maybe not by the people directly, but by their (elected) representatives. That's the same as saying that the US president isn't elected, because s/he isn't elected directly by the population. > the European Union as "democratic" ? It's not. Care to substantiate that claim?
    - true_religion 13y ago
      In practice, the US president is directly elected by the population. Every state has a law declaring that their electors (the representatives that really 'elect' the president) will follow the majority vote counted within that state. Granted, if you look at wikipedia it'll say its an indirect system, but that's only a technicality.
      - tomp 13y ago
        Ok, then I was wrong. I've previously heard that in theory, the electors could change their mind, so that's why the parties only nominated their most senior, most trusted members for electors.
        selectodude 13y ago
        You're technically right (the best kind of right) but in practice, that hasn't happened in probably 250 years.
    - waps 13y ago
AnonTurk 13y ago
What Turkey "the country" and Turkey "the government" wants is not exactly in sync right now. It is always good to make this distinction.
aytekin 13y ago
Travelled Europe (25 countries) by car two summers ago. There are many "European Union" countries way behind Turkey at pretty much everything. My conclusion was that it was very clear that the only reason Turkey was not included in EU was because it is not Christian. That's a perfectly fine choice if that's what EU chooses to be, but they should face the truth about themselves.

by mahouse 13y ago

royprins 13y ago

Relation status: It's complicated. They pushed for EU membership when their economy was in shambles. It seemed like an economic necessity for which they were (sort of) willing to make changes. The opinions within the EU itself were always diverse, but what counted is that Turkey was a strategic and economic asset. Moreover it was a place where the EU could 'do good' with their superior moral values (sarcasm intended). The first contribution of the EU was to keep the AKP in power. Every previous Islamic party was either outlawed of removed from power by the military. Both the army and the supreme court decided against that, because that would mean Turkey would never join the EU (which they needed at that time). Turkey dragged its feet in making changes, likely because they were not so convinced the EU has superior morality. Meanwhile Turkey rebounded economically and the role within the region grew. It also saw Romania a Bulgaria admitted into the EU while these countries did not even live up to the economic demands of joining. When Erdogan took full control, several things happened. Corruption went rampant and civil liberties were restricted. The country is being islamized. These things led to the Gezi Park protests and a diminished confidence from investors. Funny thing is that the more progressive part of the population only now starts to realize that EU membership could result in better civil rights. Meanwhile the EU keeps broadcasting mixed signals. They criticized Erdogan but let him get away with attacking and lying to him own people. France and Sweden are among the strongest advocates of Turkish membership. Sweden has the strongest civil rights tradition and France has the strongest separation of church and state. The idea still seems to be: "when they come into contact with our superior standards, they will change accordingly". My opinion? That is an arrogant thought and it will not work. It did not work for immigration waves and it certainly won't work for 75 million Turks. The EU will not change Turkey, but Turkey will change the EU.

waps 13y ago
The EU commission (which is the unelected organisation that actually decides) simply wants power, so if Turkey wants to join and play Trojan horse, they will certainly let them. Because of this, and regardless of the Turkey issue, can we please stop referrring to Europa, or the European Union as "democratic" ? It's not. Let's just stop pretending.
- tomp 13y ago
  > The EU commission (which is the unelected organisation What are you talking about? It's elected, maybe not by the people directly, but by their (elected) representatives. That's the same as saying that the US president isn't elected, because s/he isn't elected directly by the population. > the European Union as "democratic" ? It's not. Care to substantiate that claim?
  - true_religion 13y ago
    In practice, the US president is directly elected by the population. Every state has a law declaring that their electors (the representatives that really 'elect' the president) will follow the majority vote counted within that state. Granted, if you look at wikipedia it'll say its an indirect system, but that's only a technicality.
    - tomp 13y ago
      Ok, then I was wrong. I've previously heard that in theory, the electors could change their mind, so that's why the parties only nominated their most senior, most trusted members for electors.
      - selectodude 13y ago
        You're technically right (the best kind of right) but in practice, that hasn't happened in probably 250 years.
  - waps 13y ago

AnonTurk 13y ago

What Turkey "the country" and Turkey "the government" wants is not exactly in sync right now. It is always good to make this distinction.

aytekin 13y ago

Travelled Europe (25 countries) by car two summers ago. There are many "European Union" countries way behind Turkey at pretty much everything. My conclusion was that it was very clear that the only reason Turkey was not included in EU was because it is not Christian. That's a perfectly fine choice if that's what EU chooses to be, but they should face the truth about themselves.