6 ms·
No, there is still no dress code. Sure, there are trends and there is fashion, but it's all optional! Most programmers dress like other programmers, most design
by tikhonj 13y ago
No, there is still no dress code. Sure, there are trends and there is fashion, but it's all optional! Most programmers dress like other programmers, most designers dress like other designers and so on because most people dress like other people. It's just easier, and that's how fashion works.
But you don't have to!
There is no actual dress code. There are no actual rules¹. And most people in the industry won't look down at you for dressing differently (except maybe subconsciously). And people take advantage of this: I know plenty of engineers who wear button-down shirts, nice sweaters and blazers because the can--not everybody goes for jeans and a t-shirt.
What people actually wear is not important. The dress code--or the lack thereof--is only important because it illustrates a deep principle that I think is very important to the SV culture: departing from petty rules and embracing as much individual freedom as possible.
After all, individual freedom includes the freedom to conform! It's the freedom that's actually important, not what people do with it.
¹ Well, there are some ground rules--you can't just walk around naked all of the time--but they're very limited.
- mrxd 13y ago> Well, there are some ground rules… A while back I noticed some people use this phrase "ground rules" to talk about rules without making them seem so rule-like. Another one is "rules of the road". Thank you for demonstrating this phenomenon.
- overgard 13y agoJust for fun, try wearing a suit to a programming job. Nothing ostentatious, just a well fitted medium priced conservative suit. You'll quickly learn there isn't an explicit code, but there is certainly an implicit one. You'll get about the same reaction as if you wore parachute pants with a neon shirt.
- mikeash 13y agoThere seem to be a lot of people who think that "you must wear a suit" is a dress code, but "you can't wear a suit" is not. I assume it comes down to never considering that someone might ever wear a suit voluntarily, so thinking that forbidding it has no actual effect.
- overgard 13y agoThe funny thing is, I'm sort of jealous of the people that are "forced" to wear a suit every day. You mean they get to have an excuse to wear something that the average guy looks way better in every day without having to explain themselves because they have a built in excuse? That's awesome! The funny thing is, casual clothes often take more thought. With a suit you can blend in, with casual clothes, even if they're not great, they're /yours/; no hiding from your choices. Sure you can screw up a suit too, but it takes a lot more trying. As long as it fits well and it's not weird, it's a suit. There's not a lot to think about. It's basically like the classical Jobs' uniform of jeans+turtle neck, but way better looking. Unfortunately it now has the stigma of being "stuffy".
- cones688 13y agoI would totally agree, I have no real "enforced" dress code but I choose to wear a suit when I go to clients (even though they never do), I am usually with sysadmins, developers or Security teams. I feel like wearing a suit sets me apart and also gives impact when I enter a room, I also (being young) find it gives me a little more automatic respect which always helps too. I think people should have the choice but I really think this whole "suits" are stuffy thing is stupid, suits are comfortable, can be worn multiple days in a row and make you look fly.
- klipt 13y agoIf you live somewhere warm, a suit is quite literally 'stuffy'. You'll sweat a lot more in a suit than in a T-shirt.
- syllogism 13y agoIt really depends where you live. In Sydney, I find it impossible not to see the suit and tie as an arbitrary cultural hold-over from a different climate. The suit causes the company to waste thousands of dollars on air-conditioning, and introduces a gendered Cold War, because we simultaneously make the female staff wear clothes that strike a delicate balance between professional and attractive. The suit is so impractical and stupid in this climate that it's hard not to think negatively about an office culture that demands it, or those who haven't questioned its place as a status symbol.
- Helianthus 13y agoThere's trying to cross trends for other people (your example) and trying to cross trends in order to find your own niche within expectations. Witness all of the not-quite-fits in the examples the author found. I think you'd find that an amicable suit-wearing programmer could easily do well at an interview.
- tomhallett 13y agoI'm a ruby engineer and I was applying for a job at a 30+ employee startup in Brooklyn. I wore a nice grey pinstripe suit for the interview - nothing crazy, just a classic looking suit. When I got declined, I asked for feedback and he said "Well, some people thought you were here todo our taxes" and "You just aren't the right fit". Haha.
- hnriot 13y agoand then you sued. no hiring manager would ever give you this feedback. I call BS.
- mikeash 13y agoWhat would you sue over? I don't believe clothing choice is a protected class for employment discrimination.
- groovy2shoes 13y agoA suit suit would be interesting, though.
- hueving 13y agoA suit suit would be a riot! :-)
- zainny 13y agoHe was interviewing at a startup dude. They probably didn't have a hiring manager and have no clue about how saying stuff like this can backfire.
- stefan_kendall 13y agoI rib people who wear suits to an interview, but I wouldn't exclude anyone because of it. It's impossible to really know what the dress code of a place is going in. "Business casual" or "Casual" or "Use your best judgement" don't mean anything at a software company.
- choult 13y agoIf I wore a suit today, out of the blue, I would get a dozen people ask me if I was going to a job interview...
- blueskin_ 13y agoSame here. That's why I wore a tshirt and jeans to the interview for my current job - also a convenient filter for what kind of company it is - if they don't want me wearing that every day, I didn't want that job.
- choult 13y agoI would always recommend asking up front - but if in doubt, I find it's better to start off smart and dress down later.
- blueskin_ 13y agoIf in doubt, I'd reject the offer rather than end up somewhere with the expectation of a suit.
- odonnellryan 13y agoMaybe not in SV, but a lot of places are still business casual. Which means a sweater and nice pants.
- baddox 13y agoWhich is a pretty reasonable thing to ask, given a dramatic shift from your normal wardrobe to something much more formal. I don't see a problem.
- blueskin_ 13y agoI think many people would get less reaction with the latter.
- lmm 13y agoI've seen people do it. You'll get a few "witty" comments, but you're not going to get a talking-to from your manager like when you violate an actual dress code.
- ibay 13y agoIf you do it after you've established your competence, you'll get interrupted a lot by "witty" remarks. If you do it at an interview or something, you'll get a lot of people questioning your competence and fit.
- throwaway092834 13y agoWe have a few people who wear suits, or nice dress shirts and slacks. It's just not a big deal. No one cares.
- platinum1 13y agoWhere I work, my group has instituted "Fancy Fridays" where people wear bow ties, suits, button down shirts, etc. It's not mandatory (participation is maybe 20%), and no one from other teams really notices or cares. One of our RF engineers and one of our PMs likes designer clothes, but most don't. One software engineer dresses like a pirate (seriously). Tie-dye is somewhat popular. And of course, T-shirts and hoodies are common. I've also interviewed many people wearing a wide variety of clothing, and no one cares about that either. If we judged interviews based on what people wore, drove, ate, etc. we'd never get any competent engineers. A good culture fit means they interested in technology and our product, not that they fit some (in my experience false) stereotype. As for your test, if there is a big change in how you dress (in any way) after people know you, it will garner notice.
- YokoZar 13y agoMost industries that have "dress codes" don't actually formalize it either. There's nothing that forces lawyers to wear suits and ties other than a belief that you would look weird to other lawyers and the public if you didn't have one. That's exactly the same sort of force at play here.
- justincormack 13y agoI think many do, or people who deviate are told by managers. Certainly the case in the UK.
- morgante 13y agoRight, so both industries have dress codes and programmers don't really have much more choice in what to wear than lawyers.
- tzs 13y ago> Well, there are some ground rules--you can't just walk around naked all of the time [...] That "all of the time" part is interesting. Are there many places where it is OK to walk around naked some of the time?