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Coinpunk's Response to Apple for Removal of Blockchain App

49 points by kyledrake 13y ago

jxf 13y ago
I don't understand how the challenge to Apple is supposed to work. Isn't this equivalent to, say, Wal-Mart deciding not to stock your widgets anymore because they're going to manufacture a competing widget? It sucks, sure, but it also seems like it's within their rights to do so. Is Apple in the clear or are they running afoul of the law somewhere?
- Steko 13y ago
  AFAI can tell they're not making a legal claim, they're asking for consumer pressure.
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]
- oscargrouch 13y ago
  Its ok for you that they decide, what apps you can or cant have in a device you bought with your own money? First they use morality.. and kick out some tech, just because they dont like them.. than they use all sorts of games to tell who are in and who are out.. but hey! the phone is in your pocket.. you should decide, not them Its a company or its your priest? They are deciding your life for you... wake up. Really, i dont want to have anything to do with apple, im a free spirit and i know better whats good for me, they just need to get out of our way.. but the state are also corrupted by the big companies.. they do nothing to stop that..because you know, politics and power is a expensive game to play.. and here comes the Big Brother.. and people just love them..
  - jxf 13y ago
    I didn't say I was okay with any of it -- in fact, I said the opposite ("[this] sucks"). However, it's also perfectly legal, as far as I can tell. I guess I don't really get what consumer pressure is going to do, realistically speaking. The number of Bitcoin users (the users most likely to participate in this) is very small relative to the number of Apple users. If you're interested, I'd be willing to make a $100 bet to the charity of the winner's choice that Apple will not reinstate Coinpunk anytime in the next three months.
    - Shinkei 13y ago
      You've made the point that they are making--Apple doesn't care about their customer's demands. They won't reinstate it, not because of some possible wishy-washy legal issue, but because they just don't care enough that some of their users want it.
      - zimpenfish 13y ago
        When you get to Apple scale, worrying about sets of customers with cardinality less than about 5M is a pointless waste of time.
        Shinkei 13y ago
        Fair enough, but this issue comes up consistently in many different areas and it has resulted in the the current app store stereotype of fickle, unfair and even schizophrenic.
        zimpenfish 13y ago
        Yeah, I agree with that but I think that's an opinion that only really holds amongst technical types. I suspect the vast majority of Apple's hundreds of millions of customers don't even know this kind of thing is happening. Or really care.
    - nodata 13y ago
      > it's also perfectly legal, as far as I can tell. Are you a lawyer?
      - jrockway 13y ago
        Lawyers don't decide what is and isn't legal. Legislators and courts do.
        nodata 13y ago
        (So is JXF a legislator or court?) A lawyer specialises in the law.
  - ubernostrum 13y ago
    Its ok for you that they decide, what apps you can or cant have in a device you bought with your own money? Libertarian response: yes, it's perfectly OK, so long as Apple did not use force or fraud to get me to buy their device and agree to their terms of service. Next question?
    - Shinkei 13y ago
      This is not the Libertarian response. Google and Apple are now stewards of a captive audience--namely smartphone users. They possess a partial monopoly that should be unrestricted to competing products using their platform. IE vs. other broswers, etc. Sure they are free to censor pornography or offensive content, but if they launch a porn service and restrict others from offering a competing app in their marketplace, that could definitely be anti-competitive. Sure, users could flee to the competing device... but what happens if Google decides to do the same?
    - greyman 13y ago
      Ok, but it is not very ethical. I bought their device with a good faith, that I will be able to perform most mobile computational needs with it - the device was advertised as such. Now, my need includes also to manage my crypto-currencies wealth, and Apple doesn't allow me to do that, without even properly explaining why. Now, I can potentially lose money due to this policy. So, I agree it is legally ok, but not morally ok.
    - oscargrouch 13y ago
      After you buy it, you can smash the device on a wall if you want? wouldnt you? Now, what if Apple has expressely forbid you to do so.. would you think its fair? What im trying to elucidate here, is the issue with ownership and property.. if you want to piss in your device you should be allowed to do it.. its yours.. But control what you can use, play or watch inside of your device is ok for you? i dont understand your logic.. Ok, so you are a conscious guy that dont buy the thing because you dont like the policy in it.. but then you need a new TV from JoeTV.. oh wait.. in their terms of service they dont allow your kids to watch TV after 8 PM.. Point being: If one can do it (and are not regulated), everyone else can.. a conscious minority not buying their products wont be even missed.. This is selfish and wont stop the big guys from abusing their power to abuse us
  - dsuth 13y ago
    I don't think anyone is forcing you to use an iPhone? They are well within their rights to decide what is and isn't acceptable on their devices. And you're well within your rights to buy something else. Or buy nothing (crazy concept, I know).
- css771 13y ago
  But if Walmart decides not to stock your item, there's still Target or somewhere else for a customer to go to to get it. But if Apple bans your app, the entire iOS userbase will never see it.
  - bdamm 13y ago
    Well there's still Android or somewhere else for a customer to go get it. (Wait, did you write your app in Objective C?)
    - ibay 13y ago
      And web applications, which remain completely unrestricted.
  - epsylon 13y ago
    You can still jailbreak, can't you?
- Touche 13y ago
  If Wal-Mart were the only store allowed in your city. And the Mayor worked for Wal-Mart.
sangfroid 13y ago
Wouldn't a better way to make a point be to simply stop buying Apple products?
- eli 13y ago
  Well, I'm guessing the people who care about this iOS app already have Apple products.
- IBM 13y ago
  They know that no one really cares about Bitcoin enough to materially affect them via a boycott, so it's easier to write a blog post about it.
nwh 13y ago
> Blockchain being pulled from the app store proves what we've been saying all along: Apple isn't banning Bitcoin apps because of "legal grounds" (nobody is talking about making Bitcoin illegal), they're banning Bitcoin apps to anti-competitively prop up their own payments service. What payment service? Apple runs no payment service, nor has announced that they intend to in the future. There can't be "anti-competitor" action if they don't even have a competing product to begin with.
- higherpurpose 13y ago
  There are rumors Apple is launching one soon. If Apple already knows that, then it "makes sense" for Apple to already start banning them now, rather than make it super obvious why they are doing it after they launch their own payment service.
- sp332 13y ago
  It's not "announced" but the rumors are flying.
  - nwh 13y ago
    Most Apple rumours don't even have a grain of truth, why start screaming around like lunatics that Apple feels threatened? Apple made six times more profit in Q4 of last year[0] than the Bitcoin total market cap[1][2], it's not even on the radar if they were making their own payment system. They don't want sketchy looking payment apps on their storep, that's fairly easy to understand. It's behaviour like this post that makes the Bitcoin community even more hostile for companies to even consider approaching. [0]: http://www.apple.com/pr/library/2013/10/28Apple-Reports-Fourth-Quarter-Results.html http://www.apple.com/pr/library/2013/10/28Apple-Reports-Four... [1]: The "market cap" is misleading in this circumstance anyway, you could probably only sell a few million dollars of the stuff before the market completely bottomed out and panic ensued that it never rose up again. There's very little liquidity and a lot of weak hands. [2]: http://coinmarketcap.com/ http://coinmarketcap.com/
- Spooky23 13y ago
  iTunes is a type of payment network, and Apple's demand for a 30% share of revenue generated via apps is key to protecting that competitive advantage. Bitcoin apps are a challenge to this. Say if Amazon made a wallet app that happened to let you buy EBooks?
msie 13y ago
I'm a big Apple fan and I am disappointed in them. That they would be afraid of the legal consequences of Bitcoin apps is hogwash since they've fought tougher legal battles in the past (They even once pledged to protect developers against a patent troll too.). They are stifling a segment of innovation in the app marketplace. For shame Apple.
eridius 13y ago
> they're banning Bitcoin apps to anti-competitively prop up their own payments service I found it very hard to continue reading after this, because Apple doesn't have a payments service. Not that they really had anything other to say beyond this laughable claim.
- higherpurpose 13y ago
  Not yet: http://business.time.com/2014/01/30/apples-next-big-thing-could-be-allowing-you-to-easily-pay-for-stuff/ http://business.time.com/2014/01/30/apples-next-big-thing-co...
  - eridius 13y ago
    If, and I stress that quite heavily, if Apple introduces a payment service, then we can revisit this topic. But Apple has never been known to pull apps from their store that compete with a potential future app of theirs. If Apple wants to take over a market, they'll do it when they enter that market. It runs counter to everything Apple to broadcast moves like this ahead of time.
etchalon 13y ago
Until they post their actual emails from Apple, I'm taking this with a massive grain of salt.
miw-on-mobile 13y ago
It was my understanding that the App Store version of blochchain.app was missing all wallet functionality and was just a read only transaction tracker. I've run the blockchain.info wallet app from Cydia for over a year and still using it today. Jailbreak while you still can.
SyneRyder 13y ago
Other wallet apps have been much more measured in their response to being removed from the store. Take the Coinjar folks response to Apple removing their app: "Before you start DDOSing and trolling, Apple have done nothing wrong in this situation, they are just managing their own legal liability. We have had amicable discussions with them and hope they will support us in the future, when they have a more clear view of Bitcoin's place in their regulatory landscape." https://blog.coinjar.com/2014/01/09/coinjar-wallet-to-be-removed-from-app-store/ https://blog.coinjar.com/2014/01/09/coinjar-wallet-to-be-rem... A petition will be ineffective, especially against Apple. The best way to show Apple it's a problem is by no longer being a customer & switching to another device. (I'm a long time Apple fan/user, but I now use a Nexus 5 partly to have more control over the apps I can install / use.)
- kyledrake 13y ago
  Apple is the -first operating system in the world- that can control what you can and cannot install on the physical hardware device you own. You literally have no choice but to jailbreak your own phone, which in itself has questionable legal grounds. People doing the jailbreaking are being hunted down like criminals. Being measured is how we got here, now it's time to speak out. "The ones who are crazy enough to think that they can change the world, are the ones who do." -Apple http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8rwsuXHA7RA http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8rwsuXHA7RA
  - gibybo 13y ago
    Apple isn't an OS, so I assume you're talking about iOS. iOS is pretty far from the first OS to control what you can install on it. In fact it was one of the first phone OS's that let you install anything at all.
    - megaman821 13y ago
      ...unless you count a decade of Palm and Windows Mobile letting you install apps.
      - 13y ago

49 points by kyledrake 13y ago

jxf 13y ago

I don't understand how the challenge to Apple is supposed to work. Isn't this equivalent to, say, Wal-Mart deciding not to stock your widgets anymore because they're going to manufacture a competing widget? It sucks, sure, but it also seems like it's within their rights to do so. Is Apple in the clear or are they running afoul of the law somewhere?

Steko 13y ago
AFAI can tell they're not making a legal claim, they're asking for consumer pressure.
deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
oscargrouch 13y ago
Its ok for you that they decide, what apps you can or cant have in a device you bought with your own money? First they use morality.. and kick out some tech, just because they dont like them.. than they use all sorts of games to tell who are in and who are out.. but hey! the phone is in your pocket.. you should decide, not them Its a company or its your priest? They are deciding your life for you... wake up. Really, i dont want to have anything to do with apple, im a free spirit and i know better whats good for me, they just need to get out of our way.. but the state are also corrupted by the big companies.. they do nothing to stop that..because you know, politics and power is a expensive game to play.. and here comes the Big Brother.. and people just love them..
- jxf 13y ago
  I didn't say I was okay with any of it -- in fact, I said the opposite ("[this] sucks"). However, it's also perfectly legal, as far as I can tell. I guess I don't really get what consumer pressure is going to do, realistically speaking. The number of Bitcoin users (the users most likely to participate in this) is very small relative to the number of Apple users. If you're interested, I'd be willing to make a $100 bet to the charity of the winner's choice that Apple will not reinstate Coinpunk anytime in the next three months.
  - Shinkei 13y ago
    You've made the point that they are making--Apple doesn't care about their customer's demands. They won't reinstate it, not because of some possible wishy-washy legal issue, but because they just don't care enough that some of their users want it.
    - zimpenfish 13y ago
      When you get to Apple scale, worrying about sets of customers with cardinality less than about 5M is a pointless waste of time.
      - Shinkei 13y ago
        Fair enough, but this issue comes up consistently in many different areas and it has resulted in the the current app store stereotype of fickle, unfair and even schizophrenic.
        zimpenfish 13y ago
        Yeah, I agree with that but I think that's an opinion that only really holds amongst technical types. I suspect the vast majority of Apple's hundreds of millions of customers don't even know this kind of thing is happening. Or really care.
  - nodata 13y ago
    > it's also perfectly legal, as far as I can tell. Are you a lawyer?
    - jrockway 13y ago
      Lawyers don't decide what is and isn't legal. Legislators and courts do.
      - nodata 13y ago
        (So is JXF a legislator or court?) A lawyer specialises in the law.
- ubernostrum 13y ago
  Its ok for you that they decide, what apps you can or cant have in a device you bought with your own money? Libertarian response: yes, it's perfectly OK, so long as Apple did not use force or fraud to get me to buy their device and agree to their terms of service. Next question?
  - Shinkei 13y ago
    This is not the Libertarian response. Google and Apple are now stewards of a captive audience--namely smartphone users. They possess a partial monopoly that should be unrestricted to competing products using their platform. IE vs. other broswers, etc. Sure they are free to censor pornography or offensive content, but if they launch a porn service and restrict others from offering a competing app in their marketplace, that could definitely be anti-competitive. Sure, users could flee to the competing device... but what happens if Google decides to do the same?
  - greyman 13y ago
    Ok, but it is not very ethical. I bought their device with a good faith, that I will be able to perform most mobile computational needs with it - the device was advertised as such. Now, my need includes also to manage my crypto-currencies wealth, and Apple doesn't allow me to do that, without even properly explaining why. Now, I can potentially lose money due to this policy. So, I agree it is legally ok, but not morally ok.
  - oscargrouch 13y ago
    After you buy it, you can smash the device on a wall if you want? wouldnt you? Now, what if Apple has expressely forbid you to do so.. would you think its fair? What im trying to elucidate here, is the issue with ownership and property.. if you want to piss in your device you should be allowed to do it.. its yours.. But control what you can use, play or watch inside of your device is ok for you? i dont understand your logic.. Ok, so you are a conscious guy that dont buy the thing because you dont like the policy in it.. but then you need a new TV from JoeTV.. oh wait.. in their terms of service they dont allow your kids to watch TV after 8 PM.. Point being: If one can do it (and are not regulated), everyone else can.. a conscious minority not buying their products wont be even missed.. This is selfish and wont stop the big guys from abusing their power to abuse us
- dsuth 13y ago
  I don't think anyone is forcing you to use an iPhone? They are well within their rights to decide what is and isn't acceptable on their devices. And you're well within your rights to buy something else. Or buy nothing (crazy concept, I know).
css771 13y ago
But if Walmart decides not to stock your item, there's still Target or somewhere else for a customer to go to to get it. But if Apple bans your app, the entire iOS userbase will never see it.
- bdamm 13y ago
  Well there's still Android or somewhere else for a customer to go get it. (Wait, did you write your app in Objective C?)
  - ibay 13y ago
    And web applications, which remain completely unrestricted.
- epsylon 13y ago
  You can still jailbreak, can't you?
Touche 13y ago
If Wal-Mart were the only store allowed in your city. And the Mayor worked for Wal-Mart.

sangfroid 13y ago

Wouldn't a better way to make a point be to simply stop buying Apple products?

eli 13y ago
Well, I'm guessing the people who care about this iOS app already have Apple products.
IBM 13y ago
They know that no one really cares about Bitcoin enough to materially affect them via a boycott, so it's easier to write a blog post about it.

nwh 13y ago

> Blockchain being pulled from the app store proves what we've been saying all along: Apple isn't banning Bitcoin apps because of "legal grounds" (nobody is talking about making Bitcoin illegal), they're banning Bitcoin apps to anti-competitively prop up their own payments service. What payment service? Apple runs no payment service, nor has announced that they intend to in the future. There can't be "anti-competitor" action if they don't even have a competing product to begin with.

higherpurpose 13y ago
There are rumors Apple is launching one soon. If Apple already knows that, then it "makes sense" for Apple to already start banning them now, rather than make it super obvious why they are doing it after they launch their own payment service.
sp332 13y ago
It's not "announced" but the rumors are flying.
- nwh 13y ago
  Most Apple rumours don't even have a grain of truth, why start screaming around like lunatics that Apple feels threatened? Apple made six times more profit in Q4 of last year[0] than the Bitcoin total market cap[1][2], it's not even on the radar if they were making their own payment system. They don't want sketchy looking payment apps on their storep, that's fairly easy to understand. It's behaviour like this post that makes the Bitcoin community even more hostile for companies to even consider approaching. [0]: http://www.apple.com/pr/library/2013/10/28Apple-Reports-Fourth-Quarter-Results.html http://www.apple.com/pr/library/2013/10/28Apple-Reports-Four... [1]: The "market cap" is misleading in this circumstance anyway, you could probably only sell a few million dollars of the stuff before the market completely bottomed out and panic ensued that it never rose up again. There's very little liquidity and a lot of weak hands. [2]: http://coinmarketcap.com/ http://coinmarketcap.com/
Spooky23 13y ago
iTunes is a type of payment network, and Apple's demand for a 30% share of revenue generated via apps is key to protecting that competitive advantage. Bitcoin apps are a challenge to this. Say if Amazon made a wallet app that happened to let you buy EBooks?

msie 13y ago

I'm a big Apple fan and I am disappointed in them. That they would be afraid of the legal consequences of Bitcoin apps is hogwash since they've fought tougher legal battles in the past (They even once pledged to protect developers against a patent troll too.). They are stifling a segment of innovation in the app marketplace. For shame Apple.

eridius 13y ago

> they're banning Bitcoin apps to anti-competitively prop up their own payments service I found it very hard to continue reading after this, because Apple doesn't have a payments service. Not that they really had anything other to say beyond this laughable claim.

higherpurpose 13y ago
Not yet: http://business.time.com/2014/01/30/apples-next-big-thing-could-be-allowing-you-to-easily-pay-for-stuff/ http://business.time.com/2014/01/30/apples-next-big-thing-co...
- eridius 13y ago
  If, and I stress that quite heavily, if Apple introduces a payment service, then we can revisit this topic. But Apple has never been known to pull apps from their store that compete with a potential future app of theirs. If Apple wants to take over a market, they'll do it when they enter that market. It runs counter to everything Apple to broadcast moves like this ahead of time.

etchalon 13y ago

Until they post their actual emails from Apple, I'm taking this with a massive grain of salt.

miw-on-mobile 13y ago

It was my understanding that the App Store version of blochchain.app was missing all wallet functionality and was just a read only transaction tracker. I've run the blockchain.info wallet app from Cydia for over a year and still using it today. Jailbreak while you still can.

SyneRyder 13y ago

Other wallet apps have been much more measured in their response to being removed from the store. Take the Coinjar folks response to Apple removing their app: "Before you start DDOSing and trolling, Apple have done nothing wrong in this situation, they are just managing their own legal liability. We have had amicable discussions with them and hope they will support us in the future, when they have a more clear view of Bitcoin's place in their regulatory landscape." https://blog.coinjar.com/2014/01/09/coinjar-wallet-to-be-removed-from-app-store/ https://blog.coinjar.com/2014/01/09/coinjar-wallet-to-be-rem... A petition will be ineffective, especially against Apple. The best way to show Apple it's a problem is by no longer being a customer & switching to another device. (I'm a long time Apple fan/user, but I now use a Nexus 5 partly to have more control over the apps I can install / use.)

kyledrake 13y ago
Apple is the -first operating system in the world- that can control what you can and cannot install on the physical hardware device you own. You literally have no choice but to jailbreak your own phone, which in itself has questionable legal grounds. People doing the jailbreaking are being hunted down like criminals. Being measured is how we got here, now it's time to speak out. "The ones who are crazy enough to think that they can change the world, are the ones who do." -Apple http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8rwsuXHA7RA http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8rwsuXHA7RA
- gibybo 13y ago
  Apple isn't an OS, so I assume you're talking about iOS. iOS is pretty far from the first OS to control what you can install on it. In fact it was one of the first phone OS's that let you install anything at all.
  - megaman821 13y ago
    ...unless you count a decade of Palm and Windows Mobile letting you install apps.
    - 13y ago