5 ms·

No one is suggesting culture should be ignored. It's pride that's the problem. Did you do something to earn your nationality? Culture in itself is an important

No one is suggesting culture should be ignored. It's pride that's the problem. Did you do something to earn your nationality? Culture in itself is an important difference that makes people a lot more interesting to each other. But the examples given are not the same kind of difference: Olympic swimmers aren't expressing their culture. They're all, by rule, doing exactly the same thing. That the one from your nation does it the best says nothing about your culture, and there's no rational reason that swimmer or you should feel some sort of pride about that.

JoeAltmaier 13y ago
Again, silly to argue that dedication, concentration, work ethic, attitude, family support are not cultural. They all affect how well that swimmer swims on the day. This is really very obvious, and its disingenuous to pretend otherwise.
- pessimizer 13y ago
  >silly to argue that dedication, concentration, work ethic, attitude, family support are not cultural. No, it's silly to argue that they are. You've exclusively mentioned virtues that are as common to every culture as they are to every grouping of humans that hasn't been designed intentionally to exclude them. Culture largely consists of meals, hairstyles and clothing, dancing and mating habits, religion and racism, architecture, crafts, holidays, and nostalgia over mass media touchstones or memories of common suffering due to weather, famine, dictatorship, and war. When people speak about culture writ large rather than a specific subset, it's usually when they're accusing foreigners or immigrants of lacking "dedication, concentration, work ethic, attitude, [and] family support" or explaining why the citizens of one's own country haven't achieved the "dedication, concentration, work ethic, attitude, [and] family support" of some country with more civil rights, and therefore aren't ready for more civil rights.
  - JoeAltmaier 13y ago
    That's a very narrow view of culture, and wrong. Culture in some PC sense might be defined as only those things that are cute. But peoples differ greatly in important ways. There are real differences in family support, work ethic, dedication. Sorry if that seems offensive.
    - pessimizer 13y ago
      >Sorry if that seems offensive. It seems groundless and silly, rather than offensive. Examples of cultures that lack family support, a work ethic, concentration, or dedication would make your case.
      - JoeAltmaier 13y ago
        That is available to anyone who looks around, even here inside America. There is the inner-city single-family absent-dad culture where kids are unsupported and unemployable. There are solid Asian immigrant families that demand hard work and long study hours from their children, resulting in exceptional scholastic achievement. In fact you have to be blind to not see all of this. Blinded by some touchy-feely wish-fulfillment dream that somehow we'd all get along if we just quit {whatever implausible scenario you want}. I suspect at root its the feeling that we'd all get along if we were all just like me. But we're not all just like, well, anybody. We're terribly different. Get over it, deal with it, and learn to get along anyway. That's the answer, not blinding ourselves to the astonish variety of ways human societies work (or don't work).
jwr 13y ago
> Did you do something to earn your nationality? Some people did. As an example, my grandfather had to fight for the right to live according to his culture, because our country was invaded. Once you fought for your freedom, you begin to feel rather strongly about "nationality", defined as belonging to a group of people that share your cultural beliefs. And yes, you could say he "earned" his nationality. He did not fight in a a war because somebody enticed him to do so: he fought to defend his freedom, his family, and his way of life. Don't oversimplify those things.
- tobiasu 13y ago
  Was he, per chance, invaded by a nation that loved its nationalism uber alles? A nation that was only recently unified from many tribes, and whose politicians longing for a great nation resulted in 50-70 million dead? No thanks. Nationality is whose warlords turf you are born on. The second we get over this concept, the world will be a better place.
  - dasil003 13y ago
    > The second we get over this concept, the world will be a better place. Thus paving the way for our multinational corporate overlords to consolidate control. Personally I am very scared for the type of global corruption that will be possible without national boundaries.
    - cloverich 13y ago
      As opposed to the national corruption that lends itself to global warfare, genocide, and nuclear warfare? I don't see it as good, nor do I see it as inherently worse.
      - dasil003 13y ago
        Agreed, but my fear is that unification allows for consolidation of power in a way that current nation states prevent.
  - 13y ago
kailuowang 13y ago
There are some sports that reflect culture more, e.g. football (soccer). In those scenarios, you could argue that fans are taking pride somewhat due to their attachment to the culture.
couchand 13y ago
I wholeheartedly agree that there's no reason for me to feel pride in an athlete's abilities just because we're from the same nation, but I think a gold medal winning athlete has plenty to be proud of.
- vehementi 13y ago
  Her talent (accident of birth) and choice / opportunity to practice that talent for an exceptionally long time (part worthy of pride, part privilege)
sliverstorm 13y ago
Did you do something to earn your nationality? No, but we all contribute to our nation (taxes, labor, voting) so when our nation achieves something great, we share a small part of that success. Think of a soccer team. Everybody on the team celebrates and feels proud when #23 scores a goal, even though they didn't score the goal themselves. They share in #23's success.
coldtea 13y ago
>No one is suggesting culture should be ignored. It's pride that's the problem. Did you do something to earn your nationality? A nationality is a collective endeavour -- it's the people of a country moving the country forward together (each according to his ideas of course). Even by paying taxes and cleaning some beach of garbage, or building a business in your country, you're DOING something. And people do much more than that, from political action to take down a dictatorship to fighting to keep the nazis out, to tons of other things. Plus, you don't have to "earn" something to feel pride about it. It just means you love it, and you want the best for it. Do people feel pride about their brothers and sisters? I know I do.

JoeAltmaier 13y ago

Again, silly to argue that dedication, concentration, work ethic, attitude, family support are not cultural. They all affect how well that swimmer swims on the day. This is really very obvious, and its disingenuous to pretend otherwise.

pessimizer 13y ago
>silly to argue that dedication, concentration, work ethic, attitude, family support are not cultural. No, it's silly to argue that they are. You've exclusively mentioned virtues that are as common to every culture as they are to every grouping of humans that hasn't been designed intentionally to exclude them. Culture largely consists of meals, hairstyles and clothing, dancing and mating habits, religion and racism, architecture, crafts, holidays, and nostalgia over mass media touchstones or memories of common suffering due to weather, famine, dictatorship, and war. When people speak about culture writ large rather than a specific subset, it's usually when they're accusing foreigners or immigrants of lacking "dedication, concentration, work ethic, attitude, [and] family support" or explaining why the citizens of one's own country haven't achieved the "dedication, concentration, work ethic, attitude, [and] family support" of some country with more civil rights, and therefore aren't ready for more civil rights.
- JoeAltmaier 13y ago
  That's a very narrow view of culture, and wrong. Culture in some PC sense might be defined as only those things that are cute. But peoples differ greatly in important ways. There are real differences in family support, work ethic, dedication. Sorry if that seems offensive.
  - pessimizer 13y ago
    >Sorry if that seems offensive. It seems groundless and silly, rather than offensive. Examples of cultures that lack family support, a work ethic, concentration, or dedication would make your case.
    - JoeAltmaier 13y ago
      That is available to anyone who looks around, even here inside America. There is the inner-city single-family absent-dad culture where kids are unsupported and unemployable. There are solid Asian immigrant families that demand hard work and long study hours from their children, resulting in exceptional scholastic achievement. In fact you have to be blind to not see all of this. Blinded by some touchy-feely wish-fulfillment dream that somehow we'd all get along if we just quit {whatever implausible scenario you want}. I suspect at root its the feeling that we'd all get along if we were all just like me. But we're not all just like, well, anybody. We're terribly different. Get over it, deal with it, and learn to get along anyway. That's the answer, not blinding ourselves to the astonish variety of ways human societies work (or don't work).

jwr 13y ago

> Did you do something to earn your nationality? Some people did. As an example, my grandfather had to fight for the right to live according to his culture, because our country was invaded. Once you fought for your freedom, you begin to feel rather strongly about "nationality", defined as belonging to a group of people that share your cultural beliefs. And yes, you could say he "earned" his nationality. He did not fight in a a war because somebody enticed him to do so: he fought to defend his freedom, his family, and his way of life. Don't oversimplify those things.

tobiasu 13y ago
Was he, per chance, invaded by a nation that loved its nationalism uber alles? A nation that was only recently unified from many tribes, and whose politicians longing for a great nation resulted in 50-70 million dead? No thanks. Nationality is whose warlords turf you are born on. The second we get over this concept, the world will be a better place.
- dasil003 13y ago
  > The second we get over this concept, the world will be a better place. Thus paving the way for our multinational corporate overlords to consolidate control. Personally I am very scared for the type of global corruption that will be possible without national boundaries.
  - cloverich 13y ago
    As opposed to the national corruption that lends itself to global warfare, genocide, and nuclear warfare? I don't see it as good, nor do I see it as inherently worse.
    - dasil003 13y ago
      Agreed, but my fear is that unification allows for consolidation of power in a way that current nation states prevent.
- 13y ago

kailuowang 13y ago

There are some sports that reflect culture more, e.g. football (soccer). In those scenarios, you could argue that fans are taking pride somewhat due to their attachment to the culture.

couchand 13y ago

I wholeheartedly agree that there's no reason for me to feel pride in an athlete's abilities just because we're from the same nation, but I think a gold medal winning athlete has plenty to be proud of.

vehementi 13y ago
Her talent (accident of birth) and choice / opportunity to practice that talent for an exceptionally long time (part worthy of pride, part privilege)

sliverstorm 13y ago

Did you do something to earn your nationality? No, but we all contribute to our nation (taxes, labor, voting) so when our nation achieves something great, we share a small part of that success. Think of a soccer team. Everybody on the team celebrates and feels proud when #23 scores a goal, even though they didn't score the goal themselves. They share in #23's success.

coldtea 13y ago

>No one is suggesting culture should be ignored. It's pride that's the problem. Did you do something to earn your nationality? A nationality is a collective endeavour -- it's the people of a country moving the country forward together (each according to his ideas of course). Even by paying taxes and cleaning some beach of garbage, or building a business in your country, you're DOING something. And people do much more than that, from political action to take down a dictatorship to fighting to keep the nazis out, to tons of other things. Plus, you don't have to "earn" something to feel pride about it. It just means you love it, and you want the best for it. Do people feel pride about their brothers and sisters? I know I do.