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And there's a major logical error in it: > At the start of the game, you had no control over who you were or your environment. By the end of the game that beco

And there's a major logical error in it: > At the start of the game, you had no control over who you were or your environment. By the end of the game that becomes true again. This implies that you have some sort of control between the start and the end - which is completely untrue, because: What genes you get from your parents and in what environment you are put will determine everything that will happen in your head. And everything that happens in your life, has its inception in your head (over which you could never have the slightest control). This is also the reason why whe should all have the same rights (and wealth), independently of the fact of how well we were (and therefor now are) "equipped": There is no such thing as a "free will". Everything in your life is nothing but a function of 2 variables: 1) Your inherited genes 2) Your inherited initial location It means we can never be judged by anyone. EDIT: The above is not based on any beliefs (as in "religious" beliefs), it's pure logic. (So, when I wrote "is completely untrue", I meant "is completely illogic".) EDIT II: Sorry, I can't recommend any literature for this. It's all based on my own thinking. But actually, you don't need any book, because I can't call this a "worldview", I can only call it: "100% pure logic". (Meaning: no cultural/religious/otherwise arbitrary beliefs allowed.) So, if you can think logically and are willing to do some mental work, you - and everybody else who does it - will automatically get there. That's kind of the beauty of logic - it's the only thing/law in the universe that seems to be an absolute/unquestionable truth, everything else being invented by somebody.

baby 13y ago
> This implies that you have some sort of control between the start and the end - which is completely untrue. You're just saying you believing in destiny. I believe the inverse. And we will never know the truth so please don't start with a "which is completely untrue" when it's just an opinion.
- datphp 13y ago
  Causality (in which most people believe, even though they never abstracted it far enough to realize the implications)
  - baby 13y ago
    Causality doesn't imply you have no control at all in your life.
    - datphp 13y ago
      Yes it does, it means every "frame" (yay video games terms) of your life, including the complete state of your mind, is a cause of the previous "frame". Every decision is a product of your experience and state of mind, that are the product of you previous decisions, that are the product of your previous experience.. something, something!
      - baby 13y ago
        Yes, but to speak in video games term, you can still move the arrow of your character. Of course your decision are the product of your previous experience + a lot of other factors. But I believe there is a random factor, when we make a decision, we do choose one over the other. We'll never know anyway, but I feel like there would be nothing, no universe, no life, no space etc... if there was not this "random" thing.
        jmaschad 13y ago
        Randomness isn't exactly how most people would define control either. Nevertheless, I agree with your critique of determinism. Think outside the "system". Nobody knows why stuff exists or why it behaves the way it does, it's all just observation and ideas.
      - run4_too 13y ago
        This completely ignores that you have choice. You can go get another beer, as would be expected given you had three previously and chose to come to a bar, or you can choose to go home and sleep, or get in your car and drive, or swear off drinking forever. The fact that options are present to you because of your previous choices (causality) is irrelevant to the fact that you still have full control over what option you select (free will).
VLM 13y ago
You're getting unfairly voted down rather than responded to. A reasonable disagreement is pointing out you're assuming zero randomness in the universe (which includes in your head, and everyone elses head, I'm not a mind-body dualist) so no development of unique new ideas, or having unique new experiences or perceptions, both of which feed on each other to generate new echos of randomness long after something interesting happens. Also it assumes no social interaction with others however distantly linked to "interesting random people" even if the individual and their direct contacts are in fact really boring (aka effect of arts in general). That is a much more productive form of disagreement than hitting the down button. (Edited to add I think you're getting downvoted because of a cultural-linguistic meme or bug that whenever someone in the USA spins a story with "can't or don't judge" that usually means its a known and obvious statement of fact that they did something they and everyone else knows is wrong, and they have no better spin option. Last (modern) refuge of a scoundrel. Thus the downvotes)
- allthatisgold 13y ago
  Are there truly random events at the sub-atomic level? Or could it be simply that we don't understand yet what's happening but everything is deterministic? If it's the former, then there is no destiny, it is not determined. The effect of these tiny random events would propagate upwards and perhaps cause an apple to fall from a tree. A sub-atomic particle vibrating randomly in a certain way could fire a neuron, giving you a new thought. Even if life isn't determined, can you really say there is free will? You can't control the way that sub-atomic particles will behave, you may have the illusion of control in your head but at the end of the day it would come down to physics and randomness. Personally, I don't find this opinion a healthy one, so I tend not to dwell on it much.
  - baby 13y ago
    I like the idea of seeing life as deterministic or not. It's definitely a matter of "belief" when you put it that way. Although my scientific mind tells me nothing would exist if true random didn't exist. Thus the universe is not deterministic. But that's a question we'll never be able to answer anyway. This is why I downvoted the parents by the way. I feel like there is no safe discussion when it starts with strong opinions ("which is completely untrue"). There is no right or wrong here so better be open minded.
JimWestergren 13y ago
Well, I'm at the opposite scale of thinking. I think that inherited genes and location only plays a smaller part - but it depends on the person. For a normal western person my personal belief is that it is less than 10%. I am a strong believer in free will and it's what makes us so different than animals. Animals have insticts and very little free will. The thing is that if you believe in free will you have more free will as you will change your way of thinking. At least I believe that. Back in 2007 I wrote an essay "Life As a Game of Chess": http://www.jimwestergren.com/life-as-a-game-of-chess/ http://www.jimwestergren.com/life-as-a-game-of-chess/
- fromdoon 13y ago
  >> but it depends on the person And what makes the person? A Person is an amalgamation of inherited genes and collated personal experiences. Most of the personal experiences are a direct result of your location. I think it is very important for us to go easy on someone who has gone astray or in our opinion is not living a life the way we think it is ought to be lived. A Person who is a firm believer in free will would not judge anyone or for that matter force his/her view on anyone else.
- cLeEOGPw 13y ago
  > I am a strong believer in free will and it's what makes us so different than animals. Animals have instincts and very little free will. Let me give you a friendly advice. Belief in free will has a purpose on it's own, just like belief in God. But if you choose to believe, stay away from attempts to explain it scientifically. You will only waste everyone's time and energy. Just assume free will as a fact and move on. And keep animals out of it. They have as much free will as you.
  - jmaschad 13y ago
    As if science wasn't a belief system as well. As long as the source of your ideas is observation (as in all sciences) you have nothing but belief. The advantage of science isn't that it can proof stuff (which it can't) but that it is open for change instead of being dogmatic.
charlieflowers 13y ago
I've been looking for a book or other source that makes a case for this worldview in a straightforward, logical way that is as simple as possible (but no simpler). Can you recommend one?
- sickbaby 13y ago
  haven't read it, but i believe Sam Harris has written a book that attempts to do that
maxerickson 13y ago
You are still making a value judgement. That is, why shouldn't people with genes more suited to the environment they live in enjoy more success? To answer that question, you have to assign some values to things, which is not a strictly logical process.
jl6 13y ago
If we can never be judged then you cannot judge those who support our current system of inequality of rights and wealth - they are just acting according to their two variables.
- f_salmon 13y ago
  Wrong. When I say "you cannot judge", I mean "moral" judgment. Which is not to be confused with "sanctions" (like a criminal must sometimes be separated from society to protect the latter, via a prison sentence).
patmcc 13y ago
This is Determinism, which is a very old idea (not to say it's wrong - just that this is a philosophical debate that rages on). There are lots of interesting works written on it versus Free Will. My main issue with it is it seems to discount random events - and at a quantum level, it seems like there are genuinely random events, like radioactive decay. So it's not really accurate to say there are only two variables, there are really countless ones, and even small changes (like a few atoms splitting here and there) could lead to something like cancer in a friend or relative, having a serious impact on one's life. Still isn't an argument for the existence of free will though.

baby 13y ago

> This implies that you have some sort of control between the start and the end - which is completely untrue. You're just saying you believing in destiny. I believe the inverse. And we will never know the truth so please don't start with a "which is completely untrue" when it's just an opinion.

datphp 13y ago
Causality (in which most people believe, even though they never abstracted it far enough to realize the implications)
- baby 13y ago
  Causality doesn't imply you have no control at all in your life.
  - datphp 13y ago
    Yes it does, it means every "frame" (yay video games terms) of your life, including the complete state of your mind, is a cause of the previous "frame". Every decision is a product of your experience and state of mind, that are the product of you previous decisions, that are the product of your previous experience.. something, something!
    - baby 13y ago
      Yes, but to speak in video games term, you can still move the arrow of your character. Of course your decision are the product of your previous experience + a lot of other factors. But I believe there is a random factor, when we make a decision, we do choose one over the other. We'll never know anyway, but I feel like there would be nothing, no universe, no life, no space etc... if there was not this "random" thing.
      - jmaschad 13y ago
        Randomness isn't exactly how most people would define control either. Nevertheless, I agree with your critique of determinism. Think outside the "system". Nobody knows why stuff exists or why it behaves the way it does, it's all just observation and ideas.
    - run4_too 13y ago
      This completely ignores that you have choice. You can go get another beer, as would be expected given you had three previously and chose to come to a bar, or you can choose to go home and sleep, or get in your car and drive, or swear off drinking forever. The fact that options are present to you because of your previous choices (causality) is irrelevant to the fact that you still have full control over what option you select (free will).

VLM 13y ago

You're getting unfairly voted down rather than responded to. A reasonable disagreement is pointing out you're assuming zero randomness in the universe (which includes in your head, and everyone elses head, I'm not a mind-body dualist) so no development of unique new ideas, or having unique new experiences or perceptions, both of which feed on each other to generate new echos of randomness long after something interesting happens. Also it assumes no social interaction with others however distantly linked to "interesting random people" even if the individual and their direct contacts are in fact really boring (aka effect of arts in general). That is a much more productive form of disagreement than hitting the down button. (Edited to add I think you're getting downvoted because of a cultural-linguistic meme or bug that whenever someone in the USA spins a story with "can't or don't judge" that usually means its a known and obvious statement of fact that they did something they and everyone else knows is wrong, and they have no better spin option. Last (modern) refuge of a scoundrel. Thus the downvotes)

allthatisgold 13y ago
Are there truly random events at the sub-atomic level? Or could it be simply that we don't understand yet what's happening but everything is deterministic? If it's the former, then there is no destiny, it is not determined. The effect of these tiny random events would propagate upwards and perhaps cause an apple to fall from a tree. A sub-atomic particle vibrating randomly in a certain way could fire a neuron, giving you a new thought. Even if life isn't determined, can you really say there is free will? You can't control the way that sub-atomic particles will behave, you may have the illusion of control in your head but at the end of the day it would come down to physics and randomness. Personally, I don't find this opinion a healthy one, so I tend not to dwell on it much.
- baby 13y ago
  I like the idea of seeing life as deterministic or not. It's definitely a matter of "belief" when you put it that way. Although my scientific mind tells me nothing would exist if true random didn't exist. Thus the universe is not deterministic. But that's a question we'll never be able to answer anyway. This is why I downvoted the parents by the way. I feel like there is no safe discussion when it starts with strong opinions ("which is completely untrue"). There is no right or wrong here so better be open minded.

JimWestergren 13y ago

Well, I'm at the opposite scale of thinking. I think that inherited genes and location only plays a smaller part - but it depends on the person. For a normal western person my personal belief is that it is less than 10%. I am a strong believer in free will and it's what makes us so different than animals. Animals have insticts and very little free will. The thing is that if you believe in free will you have more free will as you will change your way of thinking. At least I believe that. Back in 2007 I wrote an essay "Life As a Game of Chess": http://www.jimwestergren.com/life-as-a-game-of-chess/ http://www.jimwestergren.com/life-as-a-game-of-chess/

fromdoon 13y ago
>> but it depends on the person And what makes the person? A Person is an amalgamation of inherited genes and collated personal experiences. Most of the personal experiences are a direct result of your location. I think it is very important for us to go easy on someone who has gone astray or in our opinion is not living a life the way we think it is ought to be lived. A Person who is a firm believer in free will would not judge anyone or for that matter force his/her view on anyone else.
cLeEOGPw 13y ago
> I am a strong believer in free will and it's what makes us so different than animals. Animals have instincts and very little free will. Let me give you a friendly advice. Belief in free will has a purpose on it's own, just like belief in God. But if you choose to believe, stay away from attempts to explain it scientifically. You will only waste everyone's time and energy. Just assume free will as a fact and move on. And keep animals out of it. They have as much free will as you.
- jmaschad 13y ago
  As if science wasn't a belief system as well. As long as the source of your ideas is observation (as in all sciences) you have nothing but belief. The advantage of science isn't that it can proof stuff (which it can't) but that it is open for change instead of being dogmatic.

charlieflowers 13y ago

I've been looking for a book or other source that makes a case for this worldview in a straightforward, logical way that is as simple as possible (but no simpler). Can you recommend one?

sickbaby 13y ago
haven't read it, but i believe Sam Harris has written a book that attempts to do that

maxerickson 13y ago

You are still making a value judgement. That is, why shouldn't people with genes more suited to the environment they live in enjoy more success? To answer that question, you have to assign some values to things, which is not a strictly logical process.

jl6 13y ago

If we can never be judged then you cannot judge those who support our current system of inequality of rights and wealth - they are just acting according to their two variables.

f_salmon 13y ago
Wrong. When I say "you cannot judge", I mean "moral" judgment. Which is not to be confused with "sanctions" (like a criminal must sometimes be separated from society to protect the latter, via a prison sentence).

patmcc 13y ago

This is Determinism, which is a very old idea (not to say it's wrong - just that this is a philosophical debate that rages on). There are lots of interesting works written on it versus Free Will. My main issue with it is it seems to discount random events - and at a quantum level, it seems like there are genuinely random events, like radioactive decay. So it's not really accurate to say there are only two variables, there are really countless ones, and even small changes (like a few atoms splitting here and there) could lead to something like cancer in a friend or relative, having a serious impact on one's life. Still isn't an argument for the existence of free will though.