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This is incorrect. The CEO of PayPal David Marcus has already denied these claims: To clarify: we have no policies against using PayPal to sell Bitcoin min

This is incorrect. The CEO of PayPal David Marcus has already denied these claims: To clarify: we have no policies against using PayPal to sell Bitcoin mining rigs. We don't support any currency txn whether fiat or BTC for a host of regulatory issues. But we treat BTC and any FX txn the same way. We're believers in BTC though. There was a communication error in January but it was retracted within hours: http://i.imgur.com/GMC0fsd.png http://i.imgur.com/GMC0fsd.png https://twitter.com/davidmarcus/status/422632561882316800 https://twitter.com/davidmarcus/status/422632561882316800 https://twitter.com/davidmarcus/status/422632849670299648 https://twitter.com/davidmarcus/status/422632849670299648

sillysaurus2 13y ago
Is the Bitcointalk poster lying, then? One of these two stories can't be true, and the poster has no reason to lie... (Not that people on the internet need one.)
- dustcoin 13y ago
  Neither the bitcointalk poster nor Paypal's CEO were lying, although the poster's conclusion is now proven to be incorrect. The OP was selling casascius coins, which contain bitcoin private keys (digital currency) and are therefore against the terms of service. The CS rep the OP talked to incorrectly communicated that ALL bitcoin related items were banned. Later Paypal and their CEO issued a statement clarifying that only digital currencies themselves were banned.
- citricsquid 13y ago
  I doubt they're lying, what they are doing is mislabelling their experience as representative. Low level PayPal employees have previously made mistakes that has resulted in people who are selling mining equipment finding their accounts suspended, however these are misinterpretations of the rules by the lowest level of PayPal employees. The David Marcus statement was in response to a story (almost identical to the story of the bitcointalk poster) from a couple of weeks ago. http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1v12p4/well_done_paypal_well_done_jerks/ http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1v12p4/well_done_pa... http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1v3qhw/update_well_done_paypal_well_done_jerks/ http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1v3qhw/update_well_...
- Grue3 13y ago
  You really think somebody would do that? Go on the Internet and tell lies? Seriously, it's an anonymous Internet forum. Anything without proof should be assumed as false.
lisp-and-seo 13y ago
That muppet, liar and MBA.
scottcanoni 13y ago
Paypal is banning any account which deals in currency exchange. They are still allowing hardware such as Bitcoin mining devices. The gray area are Casascius Coins which they are banning because it involves currency exchange even though it is sold with a physical item. By the way, my post title was changed by someone else. Paypal is NOT banning anything Bitcoin related, they are only banning Bitcoin exchanges for fiat currencies.
- vog 13y ago
  > By the way, my post title was changed by someone else Sadly, this is a well-known issue on HN: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6216685 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6216685 Although that open letter received a lot of attention, nothing has changed since then: No transparency which admin "corrected" the title, not even an indication that this kind of manipulation happened at all. So you as the submitter receive all complaints about the crappy title. @pg: Note that I fully understand that we HN submitters should not be encouraged to use link-baity names for our submissions. And that we should prefer the original title wherever feasible. But some articles' titles are crap. Some are uninformative, some are misleading, and some titles are even wrong. If it is recommened to remove link-baity numbers from titles ("10 Ways To Do X" -> "How To Do X"), why isn't it equally feasible to replace misleading/wrong titles with informative/correct titles?
  - pygy_ 13y ago
    The justification for the current behavior is that the mods don't have the time to read the articles and verify whether a custom title is better than the original. I suggested via email that they could let veteran users flag inappropriate (link-baity/editorialized/inaccurate) titles and have moderators change them in that case, but I never received any answer.
whitef0x 13y ago
So are all those posters on bitcoin trying to scam David Marcus? Supposing they are, what would be their motivation to do so? To deface paypal? Seems unlikely
julespitt 13y ago
I guess David Marcus didn't (nor anyone else at Paypal) read the FinCEN regs because Bitcoin exchange is not considered "currency exchange" for regulatory purposes because FinCEN says it's not a "currency." Sigh.
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]
- anologwintermut 13y ago
  They likely did, you clearly did not: "... a person is an exchanger and a money transmitter if the person accepts such de-centralized convertible virtual currency from one person and transmits it to another person as part of the acceptance and transfer of currency, funds, or other value that substitutes for currency"[emphasis mine] from http://fincen.gov/statutes_regs/guidance/html/FIN-2013-G001.html http://fincen.gov/statutes_regs/guidance/html/FIN-2013-G001.... That particular section may or may not cover Paypal, but certainly you don't get out of the money transmitting rules by not dealing with "money."
  - deleted 13y ago
    [deleted]
  - julespitt 13y ago
    I didn't say you get out of money transmitter rules. Just that Paypal's "currency exchange" reading and analogy is wrong - see: "...a person who accepts real currency in exchange for virtual currency, or vice versa, is not a dealer in foreign exchange under FinCEN's regulations."
    - gamblor956 13y ago
      You're still not getting it. Paypal isn't subject to the foreign currency rules of the FinCEN regulations because virtual currencies aren't foreign currencies. Paypal is still subject to the other rules that apply to money transmitters.
coldtea 13y ago
>This is incorrect. The CEO of PayPal David Marcus has already denied these claims It might very well be incorrect, but "the CEO denied these claims" is very low proof in my book.
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]
ck2 13y ago
I assure you, he has no idea what his underlings are doing. They most certainly kill things dealing with crypto-currencies. The questions is it overly-sensitive anti-fraud, or overly-sensitive anti-competition.
- corin_ 13y ago
  He's not denying that they don't allow trading of any currencies, including BTC. What he says they allow is selling BTC-related products (such as mining machines).

sillysaurus2 13y ago

Is the Bitcointalk poster lying, then? One of these two stories can't be true, and the poster has no reason to lie... (Not that people on the internet need one.)

dustcoin 13y ago
Neither the bitcointalk poster nor Paypal's CEO were lying, although the poster's conclusion is now proven to be incorrect. The OP was selling casascius coins, which contain bitcoin private keys (digital currency) and are therefore against the terms of service. The CS rep the OP talked to incorrectly communicated that ALL bitcoin related items were banned. Later Paypal and their CEO issued a statement clarifying that only digital currencies themselves were banned.
citricsquid 13y ago
I doubt they're lying, what they are doing is mislabelling their experience as representative. Low level PayPal employees have previously made mistakes that has resulted in people who are selling mining equipment finding their accounts suspended, however these are misinterpretations of the rules by the lowest level of PayPal employees. The David Marcus statement was in response to a story (almost identical to the story of the bitcointalk poster) from a couple of weeks ago. http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1v12p4/well_done_paypal_well_done_jerks/ http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1v12p4/well_done_pa... http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1v3qhw/update_well_done_paypal_well_done_jerks/ http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1v3qhw/update_well_...
Grue3 13y ago
You really think somebody would do that? Go on the Internet and tell lies? Seriously, it's an anonymous Internet forum. Anything without proof should be assumed as false.

lisp-and-seo 13y ago

That muppet, liar and MBA.

scottcanoni 13y ago

Paypal is banning any account which deals in currency exchange. They are still allowing hardware such as Bitcoin mining devices. The gray area are Casascius Coins which they are banning because it involves currency exchange even though it is sold with a physical item. By the way, my post title was changed by someone else. Paypal is NOT banning anything Bitcoin related, they are only banning Bitcoin exchanges for fiat currencies.

vog 13y ago
> By the way, my post title was changed by someone else Sadly, this is a well-known issue on HN: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6216685 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6216685 Although that open letter received a lot of attention, nothing has changed since then: No transparency which admin "corrected" the title, not even an indication that this kind of manipulation happened at all. So you as the submitter receive all complaints about the crappy title. @pg: Note that I fully understand that we HN submitters should not be encouraged to use link-baity names for our submissions. And that we should prefer the original title wherever feasible. But some articles' titles are crap. Some are uninformative, some are misleading, and some titles are even wrong. If it is recommened to remove link-baity numbers from titles ("10 Ways To Do X" -> "How To Do X"), why isn't it equally feasible to replace misleading/wrong titles with informative/correct titles?
- pygy_ 13y ago
  The justification for the current behavior is that the mods don't have the time to read the articles and verify whether a custom title is better than the original. I suggested via email that they could let veteran users flag inappropriate (link-baity/editorialized/inaccurate) titles and have moderators change them in that case, but I never received any answer.

whitef0x 13y ago

So are all those posters on bitcoin trying to scam David Marcus? Supposing they are, what would be their motivation to do so? To deface paypal? Seems unlikely

julespitt 13y ago

I guess David Marcus didn't (nor anyone else at Paypal) read the FinCEN regs because Bitcoin exchange is not considered "currency exchange" for regulatory purposes because FinCEN says it's not a "currency." Sigh.

deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
anologwintermut 13y ago
They likely did, you clearly did not: "... a person is an exchanger and a money transmitter if the person accepts such de-centralized convertible virtual currency from one person and transmits it to another person as part of the acceptance and transfer of currency, funds, or other value that substitutes for currency"[emphasis mine] from http://fincen.gov/statutes_regs/guidance/html/FIN-2013-G001.html http://fincen.gov/statutes_regs/guidance/html/FIN-2013-G001.... That particular section may or may not cover Paypal, but certainly you don't get out of the money transmitting rules by not dealing with "money."
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]
- julespitt 13y ago
  I didn't say you get out of money transmitter rules. Just that Paypal's "currency exchange" reading and analogy is wrong - see: "...a person who accepts real currency in exchange for virtual currency, or vice versa, is not a dealer in foreign exchange under FinCEN's regulations."
  - gamblor956 13y ago
    You're still not getting it. Paypal isn't subject to the foreign currency rules of the FinCEN regulations because virtual currencies aren't foreign currencies. Paypal is still subject to the other rules that apply to money transmitters.

coldtea 13y ago

>This is incorrect. The CEO of PayPal David Marcus has already denied these claims It might very well be incorrect, but "the CEO denied these claims" is very low proof in my book.

deleted 13y ago
[deleted]

ck2 13y ago

I assure you, he has no idea what his underlings are doing. They most certainly kill things dealing with crypto-currencies. The questions is it overly-sensitive anti-fraud, or overly-sensitive anti-competition.

corin_ 13y ago
He's not denying that they don't allow trading of any currencies, including BTC. What he says they allow is selling BTC-related products (such as mining machines).