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No, not the laws around drugs right now — the concept of laws around drugs. Because if it's just the current laws that are problematic, then it is indeed the la

by chc 13y ago

No, not the laws around drugs right now — the concept of laws around drugs. Because if it's just the current laws that are problematic, then it is indeed the laws that are the problem, not the agency. This is not comparable to a hypothetical Rape Creation Agency, which is problematic in and of itself because we do not approve of rape under any circumstances and there are no laws that could be changed to make such an agency acceptable. The analogy is not valid for making that particular point.

Crito 13y ago
The drug laws are Jim Crow laws, version 2.0 (now with added resiliency!) They were created for exactly the same racist reasons. The laws are evil, and those who voluntarily sign on to enforce them are evil. The DEA isn't staffed by people who were drafted, they all chose to involve themselves. Each individual member of the DEA is free to refuse to participate, but they instead choose to participate. We can and should judge them for that.
- chc 13y ago
  I think you're letting your outrage overcome your sense, because this has very little to do with what I was talking about.
  - Crito 13y ago
    It has everything to do with what you are talking about. You said: "Because if it's just the current laws that are problematic, then it is indeed the laws that are the problem, not the agency." But it isn't just the laws that are problematic. The agency itself is problematic (being a construct that exists only because of the problematic laws), and the people who voluntarily work for the agency deserve every ounce of criticism that they get. There is no sense in which the agency is not problematic, both it as an abstract concept and it as a collection of free individuals are part of the problem. Neither the agency nor the people that comprise are blameless just because they did not write the laws.
smsm42 13y ago
This would be empty theorizing. May be you can create an agency and call it Rape Creation Agency and still have laws that would govern it that would not be evil (e.g., for example, for its agents to never do anything, never show up at work and just collect salaries - that'd be actually less evil than the substantial part of currently existing government agencies). But that's a theoretical exercise. Drug War, on the contrary, is very practical evil existing right now in America. And no amount of theory would change that until the laws that create that evil would be removed and replaced with ones that are not evil.
mrsteveman1 13y ago
> we do not approve of rape under any circumstances In the U.S. people actively encourage rape in prison as a form of revenge, even an inherent part of incarceration. Especially if the person being incarcerated did something that fits the common definition of "wrong", like robbing someone at gunpoint, carjacking, murder, drug trafficking, or rape. How much sympathy do people usually have for a rapist being raped in prison? Or a child molester? That's approval waiting for a chance to surface, because someone "deserved it", and it's not even close to being isolated to prisoners or criminals either, that attitude is horrifically common.

by chc 13y ago

Crito 13y ago

The drug laws are Jim Crow laws, version 2.0 (now with added resiliency!) They were created for exactly the same racist reasons. The laws are evil, and those who voluntarily sign on to enforce them are evil. The DEA isn't staffed by people who were drafted, they all chose to involve themselves. Each individual member of the DEA is free to refuse to participate, but they instead choose to participate. We can and should judge them for that.

chc 13y ago
I think you're letting your outrage overcome your sense, because this has very little to do with what I was talking about.
- Crito 13y ago
  It has everything to do with what you are talking about. You said: "Because if it's just the current laws that are problematic, then it is indeed the laws that are the problem, not the agency." But it isn't just the laws that are problematic. The agency itself is problematic (being a construct that exists only because of the problematic laws), and the people who voluntarily work for the agency deserve every ounce of criticism that they get. There is no sense in which the agency is not problematic, both it as an abstract concept and it as a collection of free individuals are part of the problem. Neither the agency nor the people that comprise are blameless just because they did not write the laws.

smsm42 13y ago

This would be empty theorizing. May be you can create an agency and call it Rape Creation Agency and still have laws that would govern it that would not be evil (e.g., for example, for its agents to never do anything, never show up at work and just collect salaries - that'd be actually less evil than the substantial part of currently existing government agencies). But that's a theoretical exercise. Drug War, on the contrary, is very practical evil existing right now in America. And no amount of theory would change that until the laws that create that evil would be removed and replaced with ones that are not evil.

mrsteveman1 13y ago

> we do not approve of rape under any circumstances In the U.S. people actively encourage rape in prison as a form of revenge, even an inherent part of incarceration. Especially if the person being incarcerated did something that fits the common definition of "wrong", like robbing someone at gunpoint, carjacking, murder, drug trafficking, or rape. How much sympathy do people usually have for a rapist being raped in prison? Or a child molester? That's approval waiting for a chance to surface, because someone "deserved it", and it's not even close to being isolated to prisoners or criminals either, that attitude is horrifically common.