5 ms·

I never want to see a Microsoft monopoly over "desktop computing" (hah, what an aged term!) again, but I'd definitely like to see their talent get to assert its

I never want to see a Microsoft monopoly over "desktop computing" (hah, what an aged term!) again, but I'd definitely like to see their talent get to assert itself further than it currently is able to. Microsoft started as a development tools company and they're still pretty damn good at it. I hope the next decade allows that group to flourish at the very least.

shmerl 13y ago
> Microsoft started as a development tools company and they're still pretty damn good at it. Why are they so behind in C++11 support in their tools then? I think they are falling behind in their tools advantages already. With emergence of OpenGL debugger from Valve that will only escalate (at least on the gaming scene).
- ConceptJunkie 13y ago
  That's ironic considered that Microsoft was ahead of the curve on C++03. They were the first, IIUC, to fully implement the standard, and were way ahead of the competition during the whole process. It wouldn't be unfair to call me a Microsoft "hater", but I've always had respect for their development tools, and especially their compilers. I'm doing a little Windows development these days, but it's on an ancient version of Visual Studio (2003) that can't be upgraded at this time, so I'm not familiar with the latest and greatest. I'm surprised to hear they are behind the curve here, although I'm not surprised to hear that anyone is having trouble implementing the amazingly complex stuff that was introduced in C++11.
  - shmerl 13y ago
    They are behind competition (gcc and clang). I doubt they can excuse it with the lack of resources, so I'm not sure why it is so. I don't really use their compilers so it doesn't bother me, I'm just pointing out the fact.
    - wfraser 13y ago
      I think they're too distracted with the WinRT and its accompanying C++/CX silliness to properly focus on C++11. It feels like the 1st party platform got the priority in manpower.
- JeremyMorgan 13y ago
  Probably because of an escalated focus on C#, which is far more popular for developers using Visual Studio.
- jejones3141 13y ago
  Not to mention basically telling C users to buzz off, they won't bother with C99 support.
  - pbsd 13y ago
    The current version of their compiler supports many C99 language constructs and libraries; I think VLAs and the restrict keyword are the most noteworthy features still missing.
- justin66 13y ago
  It's good to keep some perspective. C++ standards are incorporated into tools so much faster than they used to be it's not even funny. I'm not on the inside so I don't know why things are so much better, but clang, gcc, and visual studio people are all doing a pretty great job.
- marshray 13y ago
  http://blogs.msdn.com/b/vcblog/archive/2013/12/02/c-11-14-core-language-features-in-vs-2013-and-the-nov-2013-ctp.aspx http://blogs.msdn.com/b/vcblog/archive/2013/12/02/c-11-14-co... C++11 support is getting mostly there now and some C++14 is starting to come on line. Disclosure: Microsoft employee, but not in Visual Studio group.
  - shmerl 13y ago
    It's improving, but slower than other major compilers. Basically until the standard is fully supported - it's still not there.

shmerl 13y ago

> Microsoft started as a development tools company and they're still pretty damn good at it. Why are they so behind in C++11 support in their tools then? I think they are falling behind in their tools advantages already. With emergence of OpenGL debugger from Valve that will only escalate (at least on the gaming scene).

ConceptJunkie 13y ago
That's ironic considered that Microsoft was ahead of the curve on C++03. They were the first, IIUC, to fully implement the standard, and were way ahead of the competition during the whole process. It wouldn't be unfair to call me a Microsoft "hater", but I've always had respect for their development tools, and especially their compilers. I'm doing a little Windows development these days, but it's on an ancient version of Visual Studio (2003) that can't be upgraded at this time, so I'm not familiar with the latest and greatest. I'm surprised to hear they are behind the curve here, although I'm not surprised to hear that anyone is having trouble implementing the amazingly complex stuff that was introduced in C++11.
- shmerl 13y ago
  They are behind competition (gcc and clang). I doubt they can excuse it with the lack of resources, so I'm not sure why it is so. I don't really use their compilers so it doesn't bother me, I'm just pointing out the fact.
  - wfraser 13y ago
    I think they're too distracted with the WinRT and its accompanying C++/CX silliness to properly focus on C++11. It feels like the 1st party platform got the priority in manpower.
JeremyMorgan 13y ago
Probably because of an escalated focus on C#, which is far more popular for developers using Visual Studio.
jejones3141 13y ago
Not to mention basically telling C users to buzz off, they won't bother with C99 support.
- pbsd 13y ago
  The current version of their compiler supports many C99 language constructs and libraries; I think VLAs and the restrict keyword are the most noteworthy features still missing.
justin66 13y ago
It's good to keep some perspective. C++ standards are incorporated into tools so much faster than they used to be it's not even funny. I'm not on the inside so I don't know why things are so much better, but clang, gcc, and visual studio people are all doing a pretty great job.
marshray 13y ago
http://blogs.msdn.com/b/vcblog/archive/2013/12/02/c-11-14-core-language-features-in-vs-2013-and-the-nov-2013-ctp.aspx http://blogs.msdn.com/b/vcblog/archive/2013/12/02/c-11-14-co... C++11 support is getting mostly there now and some C++14 is starting to come on line. Disclosure: Microsoft employee, but not in Visual Studio group.
- shmerl 13y ago
  It's improving, but slower than other major compilers. Basically until the standard is fully supported - it's still not there.