5 ms·

When will these articles learn that the fact that we are graduating enough STEM students, but still have a shortage of those who can fill the jobs, is a symptom

When will these articles learn that the fact that we are graduating enough STEM students, but still have a shortage of those who can fill the jobs, is a symptom of the science education crisis. No one would argue we aren't graduating enough students (or lawyers, etc). We still have a general education crisis, and a severe legal education crisis.

vonmoltke 13y ago
The second paragraph of the following article argues precisely that: http://thehill.com/blogs/congress-blog/technology/287435-a-short-and-long-term-solution-to-americas-stem-crisis http://thehill.com/blogs/congress-blog/technology/287435-a-s... Additionally, the National Math and Science initiative is focused on the dual goals of improving the quality of education and quantity of students: https://nms.org/Education/OurStrategy.aspx https://nms.org/Education/OurStrategy.aspx
mathattack 13y ago
My 2 cents... If 2 degrees have the same difficulty, and offer careers with similar "non-cash benefits" but different salaries, then there is an issue. STEM grads go into finance and consulting because that's where the pay is better. Meanwhile philosophy majors struggle to get any jobs. Net - either we need more STEM majors because STEM is the only rigorous career path out there, or we should steer more folks in that direction.
- cafard 13y ago
  Indeed. I was at a commencement several years ago, where I noticed a heartening number of hoods in a color indicating an engineering or science degree. Somebody then told me that two thirds of the wearers were going into finance.
  - mathattack 13y ago
    You know something is wrong with finance and economics undergrad education when the Phd programs look for folks with other majors. :-) This should be a sign to more people that science and engineering programs are places where you can solve real problems.
rayiner 13y ago
We have a legal education crisis?
- ilbe 13y ago
  I don't think it's legal per se. A lot of people who graduate college haven't learned anything. I've seen it in both CS and legal.
- geebee 13y ago
  You know, I actually think we do. I understand your response (there are so many law school graduates), but think about it - there's a huge number of unemployed or underemployed lawyers, legal costs remain sky-high, and most Americans can't afford a lawyer for very basic needs. We force all lawyers to graduate from college without acquiring any particular background that is strictly necessary for the study of law, then force them to go through three years of very expensive graduate school, and in spite of that, many of them are almost completely incapable of practicing law or even finding reasonable employment when they graduate. It's a 7 year education path that results in an unemployable person while a substantial need for affordable services goes unmet.
  - rayiner 13y ago
    It's a strange market, but it makes sense if you consider two points, neither of which is really related to education: 1) Legal services is a product that's hard to mass produce because each job is idiosyncratic. Plumbers and mechanics, jobs which have similar characteristics, charge $80-100/hour. Nearly everyone fits in one of a dozen sizes of shoe that can be cheaply manufactured in China, but every landlord-tenant dispute is slightly different. 2) At nearly every level, there is a limited supply of experienced lawyers (this is true for plumbers and mechanics and also consultants and bankers). Compare with management consulting. The field has zero educational or certification requirements, as far as I know, but McKinsey doesn't charge less per hour than a high-end law firm. Corporate clients in particular don't want to hire professionals that don't have prior, real-world experience with corporate matters. There are a limited set of opportunities to work on a real litigation or real merger, and so there is a limited supply of professionals with the desired experience. The educational system can't really remedy either problem. There are schools that put a huge emphasis on clinical, real world education, and yet firms and clients still focus most of their recruiting on schools that offer classes like Ethnoracial Identity in Anthropology Language and Law: http://abovethelaw.com/2013/12/6-ivy-league-law-classes-for-spring-semester http://abovethelaw.com/2013/12/6-ivy-league-law-classes-for-....
steverb 13y ago
I believe the fact that salaries in STEM fields aren't insanely high is a symptom that we generally have enough STEM educated people to fill the jobs.
- cushychicken 13y ago
  I think the point he's trying to make is that there is a skill gap, not a labor gap. We have plenty of people with degrees, but not enough with the skills they need to fill the jobs at hand.
  - mrxd 13y ago
    If that were true, we'd expect to see wages rise.
    - nickff 13y ago
      Only those with valuable skills would see their wages rise, it is possible that the average STEM employee would not.
    - moocowduckquack 13y ago
      Depends, if a skill gap develops, you can then have a corresponding drop in productivity which can depress wages.

vonmoltke 13y ago

The second paragraph of the following article argues precisely that: http://thehill.com/blogs/congress-blog/technology/287435-a-short-and-long-term-solution-to-americas-stem-crisis http://thehill.com/blogs/congress-blog/technology/287435-a-s... Additionally, the National Math and Science initiative is focused on the dual goals of improving the quality of education and quantity of students: https://nms.org/Education/OurStrategy.aspx https://nms.org/Education/OurStrategy.aspx

mathattack 13y ago

My 2 cents... If 2 degrees have the same difficulty, and offer careers with similar "non-cash benefits" but different salaries, then there is an issue. STEM grads go into finance and consulting because that's where the pay is better. Meanwhile philosophy majors struggle to get any jobs. Net - either we need more STEM majors because STEM is the only rigorous career path out there, or we should steer more folks in that direction.

cafard 13y ago
Indeed. I was at a commencement several years ago, where I noticed a heartening number of hoods in a color indicating an engineering or science degree. Somebody then told me that two thirds of the wearers were going into finance.
- mathattack 13y ago
  You know something is wrong with finance and economics undergrad education when the Phd programs look for folks with other majors. :-) This should be a sign to more people that science and engineering programs are places where you can solve real problems.

rayiner 13y ago

We have a legal education crisis?

ilbe 13y ago
I don't think it's legal per se. A lot of people who graduate college haven't learned anything. I've seen it in both CS and legal.
geebee 13y ago
You know, I actually think we do. I understand your response (there are so many law school graduates), but think about it - there's a huge number of unemployed or underemployed lawyers, legal costs remain sky-high, and most Americans can't afford a lawyer for very basic needs. We force all lawyers to graduate from college without acquiring any particular background that is strictly necessary for the study of law, then force them to go through three years of very expensive graduate school, and in spite of that, many of them are almost completely incapable of practicing law or even finding reasonable employment when they graduate. It's a 7 year education path that results in an unemployable person while a substantial need for affordable services goes unmet.
- rayiner 13y ago
  It's a strange market, but it makes sense if you consider two points, neither of which is really related to education: 1) Legal services is a product that's hard to mass produce because each job is idiosyncratic. Plumbers and mechanics, jobs which have similar characteristics, charge $80-100/hour. Nearly everyone fits in one of a dozen sizes of shoe that can be cheaply manufactured in China, but every landlord-tenant dispute is slightly different. 2) At nearly every level, there is a limited supply of experienced lawyers (this is true for plumbers and mechanics and also consultants and bankers). Compare with management consulting. The field has zero educational or certification requirements, as far as I know, but McKinsey doesn't charge less per hour than a high-end law firm. Corporate clients in particular don't want to hire professionals that don't have prior, real-world experience with corporate matters. There are a limited set of opportunities to work on a real litigation or real merger, and so there is a limited supply of professionals with the desired experience. The educational system can't really remedy either problem. There are schools that put a huge emphasis on clinical, real world education, and yet firms and clients still focus most of their recruiting on schools that offer classes like Ethnoracial Identity in Anthropology Language and Law: http://abovethelaw.com/2013/12/6-ivy-league-law-classes-for-spring-semester http://abovethelaw.com/2013/12/6-ivy-league-law-classes-for-....

steverb 13y ago

I believe the fact that salaries in STEM fields aren't insanely high is a symptom that we generally have enough STEM educated people to fill the jobs.

cushychicken 13y ago
I think the point he's trying to make is that there is a skill gap, not a labor gap. We have plenty of people with degrees, but not enough with the skills they need to fill the jobs at hand.
- mrxd 13y ago
  If that were true, we'd expect to see wages rise.
  - nickff 13y ago
    Only those with valuable skills would see their wages rise, it is possible that the average STEM employee would not.
  - moocowduckquack 13y ago
    Depends, if a skill gap develops, you can then have a corresponding drop in productivity which can depress wages.