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The author, Dean Baker, has a very narrow view of what libertarianism is and isn't. I'm a left-libertarian. I take a great deal of inspiration from the libertar

The author, Dean Baker, has a very narrow view of what libertarianism is and isn't. I'm a left-libertarian. I take a great deal of inspiration from the libertarian activist Karl Hess, who developed the language of the 1% versus the 99% in his 1975 manifesto, Dear America: "1.6 percent of the adult population owns 82 percent of all stock, and thus actually owns American business and industry. In a very real sense, that tiny 1 percent of the population faces the other 99 percent across a barrier of very real self-interest. That tiny 1 percent has been accumulating more as the years go on, not less. The key to that accumulation is assuring that the people who make up the other 99 percent are sharply restricted in what power and privilege they accumulate." Again, that was written by an American libertarian. Libertarianism is a family of philosophical viewpoints, that runs the gamut from the "Libertarian socialism" of Noam Chomsky to the "Geolibertarianism" of Henry George to the craziness of the "Tea Party." It's noteworthy that Ayn Rand denounced libertarianism. I was excommunicated from the Objectivist club in college for espousing libertarian anarchist views. It's also noteworthy that Tea Party founder Karl Denninger renounced the Tea Party, saying it was co-opted by the Republican Party, which shifted its focus to "Guns, gays, God." He sums up his feelings toward the Tea Party, saying: "Tea Party my ass. This was nothing other than The Republican Party stealing the anger of a population that was fed up with The Republican Party's own theft of their tax money at gunpoint to bail out the robbers of Wall Street and fraudulently redirecting it back toward electing the very people who stole all the f---ing money!" Source: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/10/20/karl-denninger-tea-party_n_770108.html http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/10/20/karl-denninger-tea-... Someone who's really interested in the variety of libertarianism ought to start with the Wikipedia article at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertarianism http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertarianism

lmm 13y ago
You're coming over rather no true scotsman there. Every political group tries to disown the negative aspects of its labels. But those who self-identify as libertarian are and should be judged on the views and actions of others who self-identify as libertarian.
- coolj 13y ago
  Should you judged by the views and actions of others who self-identify as "hackers"? If the label includes people with a wide range of fundamentally incompatible views, it's not very useful to use as a yard stick. It looks a lot like guilt by association.
  - lmm 13y ago
    > Should you judged by the views and actions of others who self-identify as "hackers"? Yes > It looks a lot like guilt by association. Your political affiliation is your own choice, so it doesn't seem to have that unfairness.
    - fdg543 13y ago
      So it's fair to say that we can judge all liberals as having Fidel Castro-like views because he identifies himself as a liberal, correct?
    - yummyfajitas 13y ago
      So it's fair to judge Democrats as guilty by association in this case? (Larry Page, Sergey Brin, Marisa Mayer, Eric Schmidt and Steve Jobs all self-identify as "Democrat", not "[Ll]ibertarian". The president of Adobe is on Obama's PMAB. I can't find info on the others with 3 minutes of googling.)
      - lmm 13y ago
        Sure, although I'm not sure the hypocrisy line is terribly effective here. A bunch of people who think regulations are necessary to stop corporations exploiting their workers turn out to run corporations that exploit workers? Well, yeah, isn't that exactly what you'd expect?
    - dllthomas 13y ago
      Most association is your own choice.
  - deleted 13y ago
jnbiche 13y ago
After a lifetime of considering myself a "civil libertarian" liberal, I've also recently come to identify as left libertarian, although I'm pretty sympathetic any thinking libertarian (cue the insults...3 2 1). Anyway, do you know of any good Internet communities for left libertarians? IRC, message boards, blogs, etc?
- protomyth 13y ago
  It's pretty hard to label yourself since the labels seem to move faster than any of my beliefs have changed. Hell, saying your a member of a party isn't good enough given some of the conflicts between the "leadership" and the rank & file. no insults and no idea where to find people.
  - jnbiche 13y ago
    Sorry, I didn't mean to imply the insults would come from you. Rather, I was expecting I would get the typical "thinking libertarian is an oxymoron" insult that I see everywhere these days from a random commenter. Apologies for making an ambiguous statement. Agree that labels aren't always the most helpful, but absent a better system, seeking ideas and kinship with those of similar political beliefs is still a good thing overall, IMHO.
    - protomyth 13y ago
      "Sorry, I didn't mean to imply the insults would come from you." Didn't think you did, I just was pointing out I intended none just as I failed to provide a reference for where to find a group / organization meeting your needs. "Agree that labels aren't always the most helpful, but absent a better system, seeking ideas and kinship with those of similar political beliefs is still a good thing overall, IMHO." Oh, I don't disagree with that, words act as banners to organize. It is just that labels seem to morph. Back in the day, writing a grant to the government that had certain words that worked 5 years before would be an auto reject. Its like fashion, except I have no clue how the words get drifted. Currently, depending on company, I could go with the label "classically liberal capitalist" or "tea party republican". Of course, the problem with the later is the assumptions one makes based on what you've "heard" as opposed to what I and others actually believe. This seems to mirror your experience with "thinking libertarian is an oxymoron" insult for Libertarian. The defense seems to be adding words or conditions that make people try to figure out the changed definition. I would bet you've heard the "I'm a little l libertarian". To which people go "uhm, explain that?!?". Words come out and sometimes back into fashion. Opponents of a belief heap added (mostly untrue generally derogatory) meaning on a word until the definition changes. Then people get tired of defending that word and pick a new one to define them. I know its happened with Occupy and the Tea Party.

lmm 13y ago

You're coming over rather no true scotsman there. Every political group tries to disown the negative aspects of its labels. But those who self-identify as libertarian are and should be judged on the views and actions of others who self-identify as libertarian.

coolj 13y ago
Should you judged by the views and actions of others who self-identify as "hackers"? If the label includes people with a wide range of fundamentally incompatible views, it's not very useful to use as a yard stick. It looks a lot like guilt by association.
- lmm 13y ago
  > Should you judged by the views and actions of others who self-identify as "hackers"? Yes > It looks a lot like guilt by association. Your political affiliation is your own choice, so it doesn't seem to have that unfairness.
  - fdg543 13y ago
    So it's fair to say that we can judge all liberals as having Fidel Castro-like views because he identifies himself as a liberal, correct?
  - yummyfajitas 13y ago
    So it's fair to judge Democrats as guilty by association in this case? (Larry Page, Sergey Brin, Marisa Mayer, Eric Schmidt and Steve Jobs all self-identify as "Democrat", not "[Ll]ibertarian". The president of Adobe is on Obama's PMAB. I can't find info on the others with 3 minutes of googling.)
    - lmm 13y ago
      Sure, although I'm not sure the hypocrisy line is terribly effective here. A bunch of people who think regulations are necessary to stop corporations exploiting their workers turn out to run corporations that exploit workers? Well, yeah, isn't that exactly what you'd expect?
  - dllthomas 13y ago
    Most association is your own choice.
- deleted 13y ago

jnbiche 13y ago

After a lifetime of considering myself a "civil libertarian" liberal, I've also recently come to identify as left libertarian, although I'm pretty sympathetic any thinking libertarian (cue the insults...3 2 1). Anyway, do you know of any good Internet communities for left libertarians? IRC, message boards, blogs, etc?

protomyth 13y ago
It's pretty hard to label yourself since the labels seem to move faster than any of my beliefs have changed. Hell, saying your a member of a party isn't good enough given some of the conflicts between the "leadership" and the rank & file. no insults and no idea where to find people.
- jnbiche 13y ago
  Sorry, I didn't mean to imply the insults would come from you. Rather, I was expecting I would get the typical "thinking libertarian is an oxymoron" insult that I see everywhere these days from a random commenter. Apologies for making an ambiguous statement. Agree that labels aren't always the most helpful, but absent a better system, seeking ideas and kinship with those of similar political beliefs is still a good thing overall, IMHO.
  - protomyth 13y ago
    "Sorry, I didn't mean to imply the insults would come from you." Didn't think you did, I just was pointing out I intended none just as I failed to provide a reference for where to find a group / organization meeting your needs. "Agree that labels aren't always the most helpful, but absent a better system, seeking ideas and kinship with those of similar political beliefs is still a good thing overall, IMHO." Oh, I don't disagree with that, words act as banners to organize. It is just that labels seem to morph. Back in the day, writing a grant to the government that had certain words that worked 5 years before would be an auto reject. Its like fashion, except I have no clue how the words get drifted. Currently, depending on company, I could go with the label "classically liberal capitalist" or "tea party republican". Of course, the problem with the later is the assumptions one makes based on what you've "heard" as opposed to what I and others actually believe. This seems to mirror your experience with "thinking libertarian is an oxymoron" insult for Libertarian. The defense seems to be adding words or conditions that make people try to figure out the changed definition. I would bet you've heard the "I'm a little l libertarian". To which people go "uhm, explain that?!?". Words come out and sometimes back into fashion. Opponents of a belief heap added (mostly untrue generally derogatory) meaning on a word until the definition changes. Then people get tired of defending that word and pick a new one to define them. I know its happened with Occupy and the Tea Party.