7 ms·

I've heard all of these arguments in support of Lisp for many years, but I'm still not convinced. Indisputably, Lisp is remarkable and holds a special place in

by todd8 13y ago

I've heard all of these arguments in support of Lisp for many years, but I'm still not convinced. Indisputably, Lisp is remarkable and holds a special place in the pantheon of programming languages. Every argument in it's favor makes sense, a lot of sense. Reading these arguments in favor of Lisp is not like reading a blog touting the benefits of Javascript where even the positive points don't really sound so positive. The arguments made for Lisp are persuasive. Lisp is different. It's really quite unique; it has an elegant simplicity underlying its implementation and a deep connection to the foundations of computation. Think of this, Gregor Kiczales's book Art of the Metaobject Protocol was published 23 years ago! I learned to program in Lisp 40 years ago. What other languages did I use back in those days? Assembly language (IBM 360, CDC 6600, IBM 1130, etc), PL/1, Fortran, APL, COBOL. Nobody, argues today that we should be trying out PL/1 or we should give COBOL a try. (Are there any projects on Github using these languages from our hazy, distant past?) Lisp's beauty and power have kept it alive and vital all these years. But, there's something wrong with this story. If Lisp is really so great, why hasn't it triumphed? I use Lisp all the time: my editor needs it during periodic tune ups. However, I can't think of when I've reached for it first when I've had a choice. Python is just easier to get things done in. If my programs don't run fast enough I don't think of Lisp, I think of C or C++. Haskell is where it's at as far as programming language research goes, not Lisp. The important observation is that it's not just me. Lisp has had time to prove itself. It made it to the finals, and it deserves the lifetime achievement award. We can honor it's beauty, it's longevity, it's power, and even it's fantastic reincarnations (Clojure), but this isn't enough. If Lisp really was the language that we should be programming in, it would have demonstrated it by now.

mrottenkolber 13y ago
I think it proved its superiority many times. Its just that certain people couldn't admit it to themselves. Other langs are just a great way to ignore cold hard engineering facts and give grunt-work developers a feeling of perfection. Of course you don't need a lisp to build CRUD apps. Companies don't want to depend on highly trained engineers either. I don't care for being cheap though. I'd rather know 10% of lisp than 100% of yet another dead-end language.
- AnimalMuppet 13y ago
  Yes! Lisp is the superior language! The only reason it doesn't dominate all others is that most programmers are too stupid to see how wonderful Lisp is! Ahem. You'd be somewhat more persuasive if you dropped the arrogance and stopped assuming that those who disagree with you are self-deceived fools.
  - calroc 13y ago
    Except this: "Yes! Lisp is the superior language! The only reason it doesn't dominate all others is that most programmers are too stupid to see how wonderful Lisp is!" ...is exactly right. Not even hyperbole. Exactly right. I was a fool until I understood LISP. The arrogance is warranted. One is a fool at least until getting LISP, this is not an assumption but a statement of fact. (I actually got mad once I got LISP because I understood the awful waste that exists in the form of non-LISP languages.)
  - mrottenkolber 13y ago
    Why then do you criticize the tone and not the argument. Again: Non-lispers are cheaper that lispers, thus it is not in the industries interest to have enlightened engineers, because for 90% of the business you don't require the enlighentment.
    - AnimalMuppet 13y ago
      Why do I criticize the tone and not the argument? Because there isn't much argument there. (Note well: I did not say that there isn't much in the argument to criticize. You haven't given much of an argument - just a smug assumption of superiority, and that's all. I criticize the tone because that's all that's there.) If you want to persuade people, give them a reason to believe what you say. "Believe me because I'm smart and you're stupid" is not a persuasive argument. If you don't want to persuade people, if you just want to wallow in your superiority in your self-imposed ghetto, that's your business. But if so, would you mind not wasting our time with your statements of superiority? And: Non-lispers are cheaper than lispers? Perhaps the average lisper is better paid than the average non-lisper. Did you control for years of experience and such? And if for 90% of the business you don't need people who know lisp, then maybe lisp isn't the best tool for the job except in 10% of the cases. Maybe you should stop thinking it's best for everybody?
dman 13y ago
What does triumph mean in a computing context? Hackers by their very nature seek mastery over challenging concepts. I think haskell and lisp are similar in the sense that they have long roads to mastery. The average hacker in these languages spends many exhilirating years scaling the tower of knowledge and this journey does a great job of keeping the hacker occupied and mystified. In simpler languages like C / Javascript there is very little in the language with which to immerse yourself. The only recourse for a stirring experience is to go ahead and build something immersive. Haskell and Lisp are great languages for thinking deep thoughts. Expecting them to dominate the computing landscape is similar to expecting an abstract algebra book for topping the New York times best sellers list.
jules 13y ago
Lisp isn't even all that unique any more. Garbage collection, closures, REPL & macros are all available in other languages these days. Scala for instance has all these features.
- maaku 13y ago
  It's still mostly unique as a fully homoiconic programming language where code is represented as a simple data structure at the heart of the language.
  - akater 13y ago
    Wolfram language is fully homoiconic and it has idioms Lisp will never have (UpValues, for example). It's there for 25 years, and yet almost nobody seems to notice. I just find it extremely funny. :-)
  - jules 13y ago
    Homoiconic isn't actually a very meaningful term. In Scala code is also represented as a data structure (AST), and macros produce ASTs. Heck C code is represented as a data structure: the string (although of course C does not have macros like Lisp & Scala).
    - mrottenkolber 13y ago
      I beg to differ. I won't even look at a language who doesn't have a macro system like CL does. Which only really works out well if its homoiconic. (For serious use that is, certain feature can of course be interesting regardless of others, e.g. I find erlang's implementation and concurrency mechanisms very interesting.)
      - frowaway001 13y ago
        I prefer my macros type-checked.
    - maaku 13y ago
hga 13y ago
Fashion and politics are very important. E.g. LISP was ascendant until the '80s when it was blamed for the business failures of various overhyped expert system companies, part of that AI winter: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AI_winter#The_setbacks_of_the_late_.2780s_and_early_.2790s https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AI_winter#The_setbacks_of_the_... Read up on e.g. the history of LISP at JPL: it's termination with extreme prejudice was basically done on a political whim. This is not to say the Scheme and Common Lisp communities didn't get massively and almost/perhaps terminally wedged in the following periods, but that's another story. Many of us old time Lispers say look at Clojure for the likely successful future of Lisp. And of course read our host's essay on the subject: http://www.paulgraham.com/avg.html http://www.paulgraham.com/avg.html
- Jach 13y ago
  For the lazy, this is a good write-up of Lisp's JPL history: http://www.flownet.com/gat/jpl-lisp.html http://www.flownet.com/gat/jpl-lisp.html Since I'm posting that link for people looking into the history I might as well also recall Naughty Dog (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Game_Oriented_Assembly_Lisp http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Game_Oriented_Assembly_Lisp) using their own lisps (GOOL and GOAL) in their games until Sony acquired them... And ZIL (http://www.ifwiki.org/index.php/ZIL http://www.ifwiki.org/index.php/ZIL) was used by InfoCom for their text adventure games. (The ZIL manual linked on that wiki is amazing.) And of course T's interesting history... (http://www.paulgraham.com/thist.html http://www.paulgraham.com/thist.html) Finally a quote by Kent Pitman I like: "Please don't assume Lisp is only useful for Animation and Graphics, AI, Bioinformatics, B2B and E-Commerce, Data Mining, EDA/Semiconductor applications, Expert Systems, Finance, Intelligent Agents, Knowledge Management, Mechanical CAD, Modeling and Simulation, Natural Language, Optimization, Research, Risk Analysis, Scheduling, Telecom, and Web Authoring just because these are the only things they happened to list." You're right about fashion and politics. Social issues, those are the problems a lisp really faces.
  - hga 13y ago
    Yep, it's that JPL account I was too lazy to look up. Just like the AI Winter, a convenient scapegoat. To acquisitions dumping LISP you could also add our host's Viaweb, right? ZIL is derived from MDL: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MDL_(programming_language) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MDL_(programming_language) which has a critical place in the subsequent development of things like Scheme. And, yeah, Zork was written in it. I had a lot of fun with Adventure on a Version 6 UNIX(TM) back in 1978, so Zork on MIT-DM in 1980 or thereabouts was simply amazing. T was my favorite in the mid-80s or so, when VAXes were very available to me. Extremely elegant, and one of the inspirations of Clojure per http://www.amazon.com/Clojure-Bookshelf/lm/R3LG3ZBZS4GCTH http://www.amazon.com/Clojure-Bookshelf/lm/R3LG3ZBZS4GCTH Finishing, by fitting into the wildly successful and very useful Java ecosystem, Clojure avoids one set of political issues (heck, Java made the world safe for GC language in general). And with a number of success stories, and to my very limited knowledge no major horror stories yet, another. But when we're talking about fashion and politics that sort of bourgeois truth doesn't matter. But we'll see.
todd8 13y ago
I'm replying to my own comment because the other commenters have made such good points and I'm responding to several at once. I wish that in my rather long career that I had a chance to work on a big project using Lisp. How else can one really make judgements about the suitability of a programming language. Simple programs and personal projects don't give one a feeling for the value of many important and perhaps subtle language features that have significance at a scale where we all all strive to improve our tools. So I can't speak with the authority of the other commenters, and I relish the comments of those that have had industrial level experience with Lisp (see hga’s comments). However, I have read books on Lisp, dozens of them. I've worked in the group that implemented a commercial Lisp at Texas Instruments. I've owned a copy of the InterLisp reference manual. I've programmed in Lisp before Common Lisp existed. I used Lisp in a classes taught by Patrick Winston and used Lisp and lambda calculus to understand CLU's semantics while working on my undergrad thesis with Barbra Liskov. I took the class before SICP was a book; I’ve still got the mimeographed notes. I not a Lisp expert, but I'm not even close to the troll end of the scale either. Of course I'm familiar with Blub and Phil Grahamm’s other essays, everyone could benefit from reading these. He explains one of Lisp’s great benefits: it makes you a better programmer. I know it has done this for me; I was wrong to suggest that Lisp hasn’t triumphed (see dman’s comments). Once upon a time I tried to introduce Lisp as an important part of our system architecture in my company, but the other engineers objected ("too many parentheses"!!). To avoid outright mutiny I developed an alternative design that didn't need a Lisp interpreter. Perhaps I should have not given in. (see mrrottenkolber’s comments). Not being an expert on Lisp, I’ve tried to figure out how much energy to put into further developing my skills there. Should I direct companies that I run or consult for to use it? Or should I tell them to use something else? This is the dilemma that I face, and this is why these discussions interest me. As jules notes, many of Lisp’s contributions to programming languages have now made their way into the most popular languages today.
- Roboprog 13y ago
  "Too many parentheses" :-) Oh for the damage I've seen C programs cause due to "not enough parentheses". Not really the main point, but there is a certain amount of irony there.
- 13y ago
beat 13y ago
As I often say, LISP is the language of the future, and it's been the language of the future since before I was born (in 1965!). It will always be the language of the future. If it hasn't become the dominant language in 50 years of computing, it probably won't happen. On the other hand, it hasn't died in 50 years of computing either. The only other language that has shown that kind of longevity is C, which came into being less than a decade after LISP. Frankly, I think a lot of the problem is social. LISP proponents have a historical condescension that really doesn't sit well with all the programmers that they think are idiots for not using LISP. Less stick and more carrot would go a long way. Consider the thread elsewhere in this discussion that whines about how Clojure even got mentioned! Clojure is exactly the sort of carrot that will bring current programmers into the functional paradigm. Bashing it because it's not pure enough is lunacy if you ever want your language of choice to be dominant, and not merely feel smug and superior to the lazy corporate sods who use crap languages. I see these attacks and remember the attacks on Scheme long ago - same issues. I firmly believe large social things happen for a reason other than "people are stupid". If LISP holds only a tiny corner of the programming world while some genuinely dreadful languages (PHP!) rule the roost, there's probably more to the story. It would do the LISP community some good to meditate on that for a while.
- hga 13y ago
  "LISP proponents have a historical condescension" I think this is a recent phenomena, which probably developed after the late '80s AI Winter et. al. crash. When Lisp was ascendant in the early '80s, the attitude, at least in the MIT community, was that everyone could and if they so desired should learn Lisp. Bernie Greenberg, among many other things the author of Multics Emacs, which used Maclisp as one of its implementation languages and of course as its extension language, was immensely proud about MIT secretaries using it to turn keyboard macros into real extensions. Although, he was a major evangelist at the time, author of a great intro I've been trying to find a copy of, the guy who said "Cons is an object which cares. It cares about its car and cdr", etc. etc. But he was fully supported by everyone I knew in the MIT Lisp community. And I think Scheme escaped some of this, or at least it didn't suffer like CL did since it retained its place as a teaching language for quite some time, only falling in this century (e.g. MIT panicked after the dot com crash resulted in EECS enrollment dropping more than by half, Berkeley recently retired its SICP class when professor Brian Harvey retired, etc.) ADDED: and unless things have changed very recently, has retained its place in computer language development. Heck, while not the same thing, Javascript is basically a Scheme with a prototype-based object system and C style syntax. Clojure as far as I can tell has escaped this, then again it's being quite successful currently and per my guess above that would help a lot. As for the "people are stupid" thesis, our host has interesting commentary in that direction with his Blub language hypothesis: http://www.paulgraham.com/avg.html http://www.paulgraham.com/avg.html BTW, as I understand it, FORTRAN, the first computer language (Lisp is the 2nd oldest survivor) still is very big in number crunching.

by todd8 13y ago

mrottenkolber 13y ago

I think it proved its superiority many times. Its just that certain people couldn't admit it to themselves. Other langs are just a great way to ignore cold hard engineering facts and give grunt-work developers a feeling of perfection. Of course you don't need a lisp to build CRUD apps. Companies don't want to depend on highly trained engineers either. I don't care for being cheap though. I'd rather know 10% of lisp than 100% of yet another dead-end language.

AnimalMuppet 13y ago
Yes! Lisp is the superior language! The only reason it doesn't dominate all others is that most programmers are too stupid to see how wonderful Lisp is! Ahem. You'd be somewhat more persuasive if you dropped the arrogance and stopped assuming that those who disagree with you are self-deceived fools.
- calroc 13y ago
  Except this: "Yes! Lisp is the superior language! The only reason it doesn't dominate all others is that most programmers are too stupid to see how wonderful Lisp is!" ...is exactly right. Not even hyperbole. Exactly right. I was a fool until I understood LISP. The arrogance is warranted. One is a fool at least until getting LISP, this is not an assumption but a statement of fact. (I actually got mad once I got LISP because I understood the awful waste that exists in the form of non-LISP languages.)
- mrottenkolber 13y ago
  Why then do you criticize the tone and not the argument. Again: Non-lispers are cheaper that lispers, thus it is not in the industries interest to have enlightened engineers, because for 90% of the business you don't require the enlighentment.
  - AnimalMuppet 13y ago
    Why do I criticize the tone and not the argument? Because there isn't much argument there. (Note well: I did not say that there isn't much in the argument to criticize. You haven't given much of an argument - just a smug assumption of superiority, and that's all. I criticize the tone because that's all that's there.) If you want to persuade people, give them a reason to believe what you say. "Believe me because I'm smart and you're stupid" is not a persuasive argument. If you don't want to persuade people, if you just want to wallow in your superiority in your self-imposed ghetto, that's your business. But if so, would you mind not wasting our time with your statements of superiority? And: Non-lispers are cheaper than lispers? Perhaps the average lisper is better paid than the average non-lisper. Did you control for years of experience and such? And if for 90% of the business you don't need people who know lisp, then maybe lisp isn't the best tool for the job except in 10% of the cases. Maybe you should stop thinking it's best for everybody?

dman 13y ago

What does triumph mean in a computing context? Hackers by their very nature seek mastery over challenging concepts. I think haskell and lisp are similar in the sense that they have long roads to mastery. The average hacker in these languages spends many exhilirating years scaling the tower of knowledge and this journey does a great job of keeping the hacker occupied and mystified. In simpler languages like C / Javascript there is very little in the language with which to immerse yourself. The only recourse for a stirring experience is to go ahead and build something immersive. Haskell and Lisp are great languages for thinking deep thoughts. Expecting them to dominate the computing landscape is similar to expecting an abstract algebra book for topping the New York times best sellers list.

jules 13y ago

Lisp isn't even all that unique any more. Garbage collection, closures, REPL & macros are all available in other languages these days. Scala for instance has all these features.

maaku 13y ago
It's still mostly unique as a fully homoiconic programming language where code is represented as a simple data structure at the heart of the language.
- akater 13y ago
  Wolfram language is fully homoiconic and it has idioms Lisp will never have (UpValues, for example). It's there for 25 years, and yet almost nobody seems to notice. I just find it extremely funny. :-)
- jules 13y ago
  Homoiconic isn't actually a very meaningful term. In Scala code is also represented as a data structure (AST), and macros produce ASTs. Heck C code is represented as a data structure: the string (although of course C does not have macros like Lisp & Scala).
  - mrottenkolber 13y ago
    I beg to differ. I won't even look at a language who doesn't have a macro system like CL does. Which only really works out well if its homoiconic. (For serious use that is, certain feature can of course be interesting regardless of others, e.g. I find erlang's implementation and concurrency mechanisms very interesting.)
    - frowaway001 13y ago
      I prefer my macros type-checked.
  - maaku 13y ago

hga 13y ago

Fashion and politics are very important. E.g. LISP was ascendant until the '80s when it was blamed for the business failures of various overhyped expert system companies, part of that AI winter: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AI_winter#The_setbacks_of_the_late_.2780s_and_early_.2790s https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AI_winter#The_setbacks_of_the_... Read up on e.g. the history of LISP at JPL: it's termination with extreme prejudice was basically done on a political whim. This is not to say the Scheme and Common Lisp communities didn't get massively and almost/perhaps terminally wedged in the following periods, but that's another story. Many of us old time Lispers say look at Clojure for the likely successful future of Lisp. And of course read our host's essay on the subject: http://www.paulgraham.com/avg.html http://www.paulgraham.com/avg.html

Jach 13y ago
For the lazy, this is a good write-up of Lisp's JPL history: http://www.flownet.com/gat/jpl-lisp.html http://www.flownet.com/gat/jpl-lisp.html Since I'm posting that link for people looking into the history I might as well also recall Naughty Dog (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Game_Oriented_Assembly_Lisp http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Game_Oriented_Assembly_Lisp) using their own lisps (GOOL and GOAL) in their games until Sony acquired them... And ZIL (http://www.ifwiki.org/index.php/ZIL http://www.ifwiki.org/index.php/ZIL) was used by InfoCom for their text adventure games. (The ZIL manual linked on that wiki is amazing.) And of course T's interesting history... (http://www.paulgraham.com/thist.html http://www.paulgraham.com/thist.html) Finally a quote by Kent Pitman I like: "Please don't assume Lisp is only useful for Animation and Graphics, AI, Bioinformatics, B2B and E-Commerce, Data Mining, EDA/Semiconductor applications, Expert Systems, Finance, Intelligent Agents, Knowledge Management, Mechanical CAD, Modeling and Simulation, Natural Language, Optimization, Research, Risk Analysis, Scheduling, Telecom, and Web Authoring just because these are the only things they happened to list." You're right about fashion and politics. Social issues, those are the problems a lisp really faces.
- hga 13y ago
  Yep, it's that JPL account I was too lazy to look up. Just like the AI Winter, a convenient scapegoat. To acquisitions dumping LISP you could also add our host's Viaweb, right? ZIL is derived from MDL: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MDL_(programming_language) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MDL_(programming_language) which has a critical place in the subsequent development of things like Scheme. And, yeah, Zork was written in it. I had a lot of fun with Adventure on a Version 6 UNIX(TM) back in 1978, so Zork on MIT-DM in 1980 or thereabouts was simply amazing. T was my favorite in the mid-80s or so, when VAXes were very available to me. Extremely elegant, and one of the inspirations of Clojure per http://www.amazon.com/Clojure-Bookshelf/lm/R3LG3ZBZS4GCTH http://www.amazon.com/Clojure-Bookshelf/lm/R3LG3ZBZS4GCTH Finishing, by fitting into the wildly successful and very useful Java ecosystem, Clojure avoids one set of political issues (heck, Java made the world safe for GC language in general). And with a number of success stories, and to my very limited knowledge no major horror stories yet, another. But when we're talking about fashion and politics that sort of bourgeois truth doesn't matter. But we'll see.

todd8 13y ago

I'm replying to my own comment because the other commenters have made such good points and I'm responding to several at once. I wish that in my rather long career that I had a chance to work on a big project using Lisp. How else can one really make judgements about the suitability of a programming language. Simple programs and personal projects don't give one a feeling for the value of many important and perhaps subtle language features that have significance at a scale where we all all strive to improve our tools. So I can't speak with the authority of the other commenters, and I relish the comments of those that have had industrial level experience with Lisp (see hga’s comments). However, I have read books on Lisp, dozens of them. I've worked in the group that implemented a commercial Lisp at Texas Instruments. I've owned a copy of the InterLisp reference manual. I've programmed in Lisp before Common Lisp existed. I used Lisp in a classes taught by Patrick Winston and used Lisp and lambda calculus to understand CLU's semantics while working on my undergrad thesis with Barbra Liskov. I took the class before SICP was a book; I’ve still got the mimeographed notes. I not a Lisp expert, but I'm not even close to the troll end of the scale either. Of course I'm familiar with Blub and Phil Grahamm’s other essays, everyone could benefit from reading these. He explains one of Lisp’s great benefits: it makes you a better programmer. I know it has done this for me; I was wrong to suggest that Lisp hasn’t triumphed (see dman’s comments). Once upon a time I tried to introduce Lisp as an important part of our system architecture in my company, but the other engineers objected ("too many parentheses"!!). To avoid outright mutiny I developed an alternative design that didn't need a Lisp interpreter. Perhaps I should have not given in. (see mrrottenkolber’s comments). Not being an expert on Lisp, I’ve tried to figure out how much energy to put into further developing my skills there. Should I direct companies that I run or consult for to use it? Or should I tell them to use something else? This is the dilemma that I face, and this is why these discussions interest me. As jules notes, many of Lisp’s contributions to programming languages have now made their way into the most popular languages today.

Roboprog 13y ago
"Too many parentheses" :-) Oh for the damage I've seen C programs cause due to "not enough parentheses". Not really the main point, but there is a certain amount of irony there.
13y ago

beat 13y ago

As I often say, LISP is the language of the future, and it's been the language of the future since before I was born (in 1965!). It will always be the language of the future. If it hasn't become the dominant language in 50 years of computing, it probably won't happen. On the other hand, it hasn't died in 50 years of computing either. The only other language that has shown that kind of longevity is C, which came into being less than a decade after LISP. Frankly, I think a lot of the problem is social. LISP proponents have a historical condescension that really doesn't sit well with all the programmers that they think are idiots for not using LISP. Less stick and more carrot would go a long way. Consider the thread elsewhere in this discussion that whines about how Clojure even got mentioned! Clojure is exactly the sort of carrot that will bring current programmers into the functional paradigm. Bashing it because it's not pure enough is lunacy if you ever want your language of choice to be dominant, and not merely feel smug and superior to the lazy corporate sods who use crap languages. I see these attacks and remember the attacks on Scheme long ago - same issues. I firmly believe large social things happen for a reason other than "people are stupid". If LISP holds only a tiny corner of the programming world while some genuinely dreadful languages (PHP!) rule the roost, there's probably more to the story. It would do the LISP community some good to meditate on that for a while.

hga 13y ago
"LISP proponents have a historical condescension" I think this is a recent phenomena, which probably developed after the late '80s AI Winter et. al. crash. When Lisp was ascendant in the early '80s, the attitude, at least in the MIT community, was that everyone could and if they so desired should learn Lisp. Bernie Greenberg, among many other things the author of Multics Emacs, which used Maclisp as one of its implementation languages and of course as its extension language, was immensely proud about MIT secretaries using it to turn keyboard macros into real extensions. Although, he was a major evangelist at the time, author of a great intro I've been trying to find a copy of, the guy who said "Cons is an object which cares. It cares about its car and cdr", etc. etc. But he was fully supported by everyone I knew in the MIT Lisp community. And I think Scheme escaped some of this, or at least it didn't suffer like CL did since it retained its place as a teaching language for quite some time, only falling in this century (e.g. MIT panicked after the dot com crash resulted in EECS enrollment dropping more than by half, Berkeley recently retired its SICP class when professor Brian Harvey retired, etc.) ADDED: and unless things have changed very recently, has retained its place in computer language development. Heck, while not the same thing, Javascript is basically a Scheme with a prototype-based object system and C style syntax. Clojure as far as I can tell has escaped this, then again it's being quite successful currently and per my guess above that would help a lot. As for the "people are stupid" thesis, our host has interesting commentary in that direction with his Blub language hypothesis: http://www.paulgraham.com/avg.html http://www.paulgraham.com/avg.html BTW, as I understand it, FORTRAN, the first computer language (Lisp is the 2nd oldest survivor) still is very big in number crunching.