7 ms·

Poignant end to the article: "America, what has happened to you?"

by jjoe 13y ago

mortov 13y ago
I think we know what happened - the attacks on the WTC. However, the response has been staggeringly perverse; we have had hundreds of thousands of people die (you don't even hear about the daily bombings in food markets in Iraq or Afghanistan now and that's without counting Syria, Lybia, Egypt etc.), we have Orwellian surveillance which only a few years ago would have been dismissed as crazy tin-foil hat nonsense but for the fact Edward Snowden revealed all the theories were true and things were much worse than even the tin foil hat people yelling at secret-spy-trees said. And that does not start to cover the censorship (see elsewhere on HN today for that). The response has grown a whole industry of fear-mongering and schemes to stop crazy make-believe terrorist plots which simply defy the laws of physics (and common sense) yet no-one will tell The Emperor that he has no clothes on. Well, not anyone he is prepared to listen to. The clothes makers have become insanely rich in the process of making their wares too. What's a few dead people in far off places if you're getting rich, right ? Meantime, US judges complain about the crazy Catch-22 goalpost moving unfairness and still people languish innocently in Guantanimo and die in what can best be described as "unclear circumstances". A nation founded on rebellion against unfair and unjust oppression, seeking life and liberty. Indeed, the question is "America, what has happened to you ?" But also, what has happened to all the other countries who joined in this madness and keep it going ? They have responsibility too.
- n21e 13y ago
  we have had hundreds of thousands of people die Yes, as compared with around three thousand. Incomparably more innocent people killed by the actions of the USA and other western nations. The arrogance, the lack of understanding that life is similar in other countries, the unquestioned greater value of the life of an American than the life of a ragged brown man we pick up in a far off place that we shouldn't have been in at all. Now more than a decade later all that's clear is that I will spend the rest of my life despising the countries in which I am likely to live.
  - sneak 13y ago
    > Now more than a decade later all that's clear is that I will spend the rest of my life despising the countries in which I am likely to live. It doesn't have to be so. You can take your productive energies elsewhere.
- rdtsc 13y ago
  > But also, what has happened to all the other countries who joined in this madness and keep it going ? At that high of a level once a "war on X" is created and billions are poured into it, whole branches of industry are opened up, whole new government agencies are created, thousands are send to kill and thousands will be killed. Things just keep going because they already are going. It becomes a self-sustaining reaction.
  - sdoering 13y ago
    War is a massacre between people not knowing each other in behoof of people knowing, but not massacring each other. (Paul Valery)
- madaxe_again 13y ago
  Spanish Armada. Never forget. Bomb Spain. The entire premise is staggeringly stupid, and the disease that afflicts America is the same that has eaten every empire built on the premise of never-ending expansion and unending military dominance.
speeder 13y ago
Nothing actually, US has always been like that, only that now people can see how absurd it all is. But ask anyone that got "democracy" by the United States, not only in middle east, but for example in South America during the cold war, several african countries, and so on, and they will tell you that this behaviour from the US government is not unexpected, and that the US population approval (even if implicit and indirect) of it, is not unexpected either.
- refurb 13y ago
  How about Japan, South Korea, Taiwan? South Korea and Taiwan weren't true democracies until the 80s. Transition from a dictatorship takes time.
  - growupkids 13y ago
    Indeed. And there are others too, not to mention the fall of the Soviet Union liberating lots of countries in no small part due to America and it's allies fight against communism. Whenever I hear people imply the US just makes things worse most if not all of the time, or never does anything for any country but itself, I'm reminded of this scene from Life of Brian: What have the Romans done for us? And after all the characters rattle off a long list of things the Romans have done, and no one seems to want to hate the Romans anymore, Reg says: "All right, but apart from the sanitation, the medicine, education, wine, public order, irrigation, roads, a fresh water system, and public health, what have the Romans ever done for us?” I can't help but be reminded of that scene. Is the US perfect? Far from it, but the implication that the US is some pox on the world is just as absurd. Edit: for anyone too young to know what the Life of Brian is, it's a comedy by Monthy Python.
    - rdtsc 13y ago
      > not to mention the fall of the Soviet Union liberating lots of countries in no small part due to America and it's allies fight against communism. Was it though? I've heard that repeated so often. If it was how come it was such a surprise to all the Sovietologists at the time? The thing is, those that worked for the CIA thought they won because their spies did this and that. Those working for the Dept of State thought they won because this and that diplomatic trick. Those in Congress throughout the years thought they won because they enacted these economic sanctions and so they killed the "Bear". The truth is probably that it would have collapsed with or without the help of anyone from outside. So not sure if US should be thanked for liberating Latvia, Georgia and Poland , ironically, Soviet Union's polices and base system setup should be thanked because it was so rotten at the core. But another thing is interesting, and it shows in your post. This thing is very dangerous and it is the very thing that many hate US for -- exceptionalism. It shows implicitly in your comment and it is often assumed in political debate. It is this idea that US is special in some objective sense. That it doesn't have to abide by rules. It shouldn't be judged by same criteria as everyone else. Equating it to the Roman Empire. Attributing it wondeful qualities of slaying a the great Satan of Communism and so on. > Is the US perfect? Far from it, but the implication that the US is some pox on the world is just as absurd. It is good to find out if people judge US based on comparing it to other countries or to the propaganda image it presents of itself. I find the disconnect and hypocrisy that shows in in the latter is one reason people might dislike US. In other words, it is because it tells others how "perfect" it is, that imperfections and transgressions that are excusable for other countries become very noticeably with US. Like say torture. Ok, Somalian government chops children's arms off say if they don't want to convert or something like that. It would not shock too many people to learn that for example. The fact that US engaged and probably still does engage in torture (even thought they've redefined it as whatever enhanced interrogations something) is very shocking and disturbing vis-a-vis the "we are the great human rights champions of the world" type proclamations. > And after all the characters rattle off a long list of things the Romans have done, and no one seems to want to hate the Romans anymore, Reg says I do. They raided and conquered the territory of my country, killed and destroyed many villages. Destroyed local culture and language and imposed theirs. It is easy to look back and say well ok, Romans turned out pretty ok. We had roads and wheels. How do we know that not having Romans invade would have turned out? Maybe it would have been even better? We can't quite run that experiment to check. Anyway this comparison with the Roman Empire doesn't quite work well for me on multiple levels, as you can see, sorry ;-)
alexeisadeski3 13y ago
Please don't take this as a defense of everything America has done: The US is currently at war with both Al Qaida and the Taliban. Members of these organizations which are captured are allowed to be held as POWs until hostilities are formally ended. What else is the US supposed to do? These men didn't necessarily commit crimes - prisoners of war are simply fighting for their country or side. Release them? What about the prisoners who are 'high risk'? Try them? You're not really supposed to charge prisoners of war with a crime. I mean I guess that you can, but why? The US is still at war with them. They'll have to be exchanged for US prisoners eventually (the Taliban have one still, if memory serves).
- foxylad 13y ago
  The problem is that these are organisations, not sovereign states. It's a bit like saying that since the US has declared a war on drugs, it should be able to hold drug dealers forever without trial. According to him, this guy went to Afganistan for a cheap medical procedure and bounty hunters handed him in as a foreign combatant. None of us knows whether this is true or not, but the issue is that suspending judicial procedure is going to lead to horrific injustice - even if you're at war. And the Taliban would never swap a high value American hostage for anyone, particularly if it was someone they'd never heard of.
  - alexeisadeski3 13y ago
    States are perfectly within their legal right to declare war on organizations. If the US were to declare war on FARC or Los Zetas, then yes the US government could detain prisoners until the end of hostilities. (Note that that's not the same as indefinitely) Whether or not this guy was actually fighting with Taliban or Al Qaida is an important issue, but not really at the heart of the broader issue regarding Guantanamo detainees.
    - rhizome 13y ago
      but not really at the heart of the broader issue regarding Guantanamo detainees. Then don't invoke it.

Poignant end to the article: "America, what has happened to you?"

by jjoe 13y ago

Poignant end to the article: "America, what has happened to you?"

I think we know what happened - the attacks on the WTC. However, the response has been staggeringly perverse; we have had hundreds of thousands of people die (you don't even hear about the daily bombings in food markets in Iraq or Afghanistan now and that's without counting Syria, Lybia, Egypt etc.), we have Orwellian surveillance which only a few years ago would have been dismissed as crazy tin-foil hat nonsense but for the fact Edward Snowden revealed all the theories were true and things were much worse than even the tin foil hat people yelling at secret-spy-trees said. And that does not start to cover the censorship (see elsewhere on HN today for that). The response has grown a whole industry of fear-mongering and schemes to stop crazy make-believe terrorist plots which simply defy the laws of physics (and common sense) yet no-one will tell The Emperor that he has no clothes on. Well, not anyone he is prepared to listen to. The clothes makers have become insanely rich in the process of making their wares too. What's a few dead people in far off places if you're getting rich, right ? Meantime, US judges complain about the crazy Catch-22 goalpost moving unfairness and still people languish innocently in Guantanimo and die in what can best be described as "unclear circumstances". A nation founded on rebellion against unfair and unjust oppression, seeking life and liberty. Indeed, the question is "America, what has happened to you ?" But also, what has happened to all the other countries who joined in this madness and keep it going ? They have responsibility too.

n21e 13y ago
we have had hundreds of thousands of people die Yes, as compared with around three thousand. Incomparably more innocent people killed by the actions of the USA and other western nations. The arrogance, the lack of understanding that life is similar in other countries, the unquestioned greater value of the life of an American than the life of a ragged brown man we pick up in a far off place that we shouldn't have been in at all. Now more than a decade later all that's clear is that I will spend the rest of my life despising the countries in which I am likely to live.
- sneak 13y ago
  > Now more than a decade later all that's clear is that I will spend the rest of my life despising the countries in which I am likely to live. It doesn't have to be so. You can take your productive energies elsewhere.
rdtsc 13y ago
> But also, what has happened to all the other countries who joined in this madness and keep it going ? At that high of a level once a "war on X" is created and billions are poured into it, whole branches of industry are opened up, whole new government agencies are created, thousands are send to kill and thousands will be killed. Things just keep going because they already are going. It becomes a self-sustaining reaction.
- sdoering 13y ago
  War is a massacre between people not knowing each other in behoof of people knowing, but not massacring each other. (Paul Valery)
madaxe_again 13y ago
Spanish Armada. Never forget. Bomb Spain. The entire premise is staggeringly stupid, and the disease that afflicts America is the same that has eaten every empire built on the premise of never-ending expansion and unending military dominance.

speeder 13y ago

Nothing actually, US has always been like that, only that now people can see how absurd it all is. But ask anyone that got "democracy" by the United States, not only in middle east, but for example in South America during the cold war, several african countries, and so on, and they will tell you that this behaviour from the US government is not unexpected, and that the US population approval (even if implicit and indirect) of it, is not unexpected either.

refurb 13y ago
How about Japan, South Korea, Taiwan? South Korea and Taiwan weren't true democracies until the 80s. Transition from a dictatorship takes time.
- growupkids 13y ago
  Indeed. And there are others too, not to mention the fall of the Soviet Union liberating lots of countries in no small part due to America and it's allies fight against communism. Whenever I hear people imply the US just makes things worse most if not all of the time, or never does anything for any country but itself, I'm reminded of this scene from Life of Brian: What have the Romans done for us? And after all the characters rattle off a long list of things the Romans have done, and no one seems to want to hate the Romans anymore, Reg says: "All right, but apart from the sanitation, the medicine, education, wine, public order, irrigation, roads, a fresh water system, and public health, what have the Romans ever done for us?” I can't help but be reminded of that scene. Is the US perfect? Far from it, but the implication that the US is some pox on the world is just as absurd. Edit: for anyone too young to know what the Life of Brian is, it's a comedy by Monthy Python.
  - rdtsc 13y ago
    > not to mention the fall of the Soviet Union liberating lots of countries in no small part due to America and it's allies fight against communism. Was it though? I've heard that repeated so often. If it was how come it was such a surprise to all the Sovietologists at the time? The thing is, those that worked for the CIA thought they won because their spies did this and that. Those working for the Dept of State thought they won because this and that diplomatic trick. Those in Congress throughout the years thought they won because they enacted these economic sanctions and so they killed the "Bear". The truth is probably that it would have collapsed with or without the help of anyone from outside. So not sure if US should be thanked for liberating Latvia, Georgia and Poland , ironically, Soviet Union's polices and base system setup should be thanked because it was so rotten at the core. But another thing is interesting, and it shows in your post. This thing is very dangerous and it is the very thing that many hate US for -- exceptionalism. It shows implicitly in your comment and it is often assumed in political debate. It is this idea that US is special in some objective sense. That it doesn't have to abide by rules. It shouldn't be judged by same criteria as everyone else. Equating it to the Roman Empire. Attributing it wondeful qualities of slaying a the great Satan of Communism and so on. > Is the US perfect? Far from it, but the implication that the US is some pox on the world is just as absurd. It is good to find out if people judge US based on comparing it to other countries or to the propaganda image it presents of itself. I find the disconnect and hypocrisy that shows in in the latter is one reason people might dislike US. In other words, it is because it tells others how "perfect" it is, that imperfections and transgressions that are excusable for other countries become very noticeably with US. Like say torture. Ok, Somalian government chops children's arms off say if they don't want to convert or something like that. It would not shock too many people to learn that for example. The fact that US engaged and probably still does engage in torture (even thought they've redefined it as whatever enhanced interrogations something) is very shocking and disturbing vis-a-vis the "we are the great human rights champions of the world" type proclamations. > And after all the characters rattle off a long list of things the Romans have done, and no one seems to want to hate the Romans anymore, Reg says I do. They raided and conquered the territory of my country, killed and destroyed many villages. Destroyed local culture and language and imposed theirs. It is easy to look back and say well ok, Romans turned out pretty ok. We had roads and wheels. How do we know that not having Romans invade would have turned out? Maybe it would have been even better? We can't quite run that experiment to check. Anyway this comparison with the Roman Empire doesn't quite work well for me on multiple levels, as you can see, sorry ;-)

alexeisadeski3 13y ago

Please don't take this as a defense of everything America has done: The US is currently at war with both Al Qaida and the Taliban. Members of these organizations which are captured are allowed to be held as POWs until hostilities are formally ended. What else is the US supposed to do? These men didn't necessarily commit crimes - prisoners of war are simply fighting for their country or side. Release them? What about the prisoners who are 'high risk'? Try them? You're not really supposed to charge prisoners of war with a crime. I mean I guess that you can, but why? The US is still at war with them. They'll have to be exchanged for US prisoners eventually (the Taliban have one still, if memory serves).

foxylad 13y ago
The problem is that these are organisations, not sovereign states. It's a bit like saying that since the US has declared a war on drugs, it should be able to hold drug dealers forever without trial. According to him, this guy went to Afganistan for a cheap medical procedure and bounty hunters handed him in as a foreign combatant. None of us knows whether this is true or not, but the issue is that suspending judicial procedure is going to lead to horrific injustice - even if you're at war. And the Taliban would never swap a high value American hostage for anyone, particularly if it was someone they'd never heard of.
- alexeisadeski3 13y ago
  States are perfectly within their legal right to declare war on organizations. If the US were to declare war on FARC or Los Zetas, then yes the US government could detain prisoners until the end of hostilities. (Note that that's not the same as indefinitely) Whether or not this guy was actually fighting with Taliban or Al Qaida is an important issue, but not really at the heart of the broader issue regarding Guantanamo detainees.
  - rhizome 13y ago
    but not really at the heart of the broader issue regarding Guantanamo detainees. Then don't invoke it.