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This article assumes that there's nothing affecting or constraining people's career choices besides interest in a particular field. It's not that women choose c

by slvv 13y ago

This article assumes that there's nothing affecting or constraining people's career choices besides interest in a particular field. It's not that women choose careers that pay less - it's that careers dominated by women are frequently perceived to be less valuable to society and are therefore paid at a lower rate. Careers in which men historically dominated, but which later become "female professions", pay less when done by women. "Women make less remunerative life choices" seems like a fairly ignorant way to explain wage disparity.

malandrew 13y ago
"Careers in which men historically dominated, but which later become "female professions", pay less when done by women." Citation please? And is the converse true. i.e. Do careers that later became "male professions", pay more when done by men?
- moomin 13y ago
  Ask Grace Hopper... (and I think you'll find the answer was yes)
  - malandrew 13y ago
    I couldn't find anything about what wage gap may have existed for her prior to 1964, but after June 11, 1964 until 1986 when she retired she was probably paid the same as men in the same position. Edit: Found some more information, showing that she was likely paid the same wage as men for the same position: "The pay and training received by the WAVES was identical to the men's."[0]. From a biographical blurb on her: "Rejected by the WAVES (Women Accepted for Volunteer Emergency Services) in 1942 for not weighing enough, she was finally admitted in December of 1943 and in 1944 was commissioned as a lieutenant junior grade, thus beginning her 42-year career with the Navy and her life-long relationship with computers." [0] http://www.sil.si.edu/smithsoniancontributions/AirSpace/text/SSAS-0007.txt http://www.sil.si.edu/smithsoniancontributions/AirSpace/text... [1] http://vcencyclopedia.vassar.edu/alumni/grace-murray-hopper.html http://vcencyclopedia.vassar.edu/alumni/grace-murray-hopper....
  - drallison 13y ago
    Sad to say, Grace Murray Hopper died January 1, 1992. She broke down many sexual discrimination barriers. She is the second woman ever to have a Naval vessel named after her. (The USS Hopper (DDG-70) is an Arleigh Burke-class guided missile destroyer of the United States Navy.)
twic 13y ago
I am dubious about this "perceived to be less valuable to society and are therefore paid at a lower rate" idea. Wages are not set according to the social values of jobs. They are set according to how many people want to do the job. (supply) and how much money the employer can make by hiring someone (whence demand). There are not many people who want to be petroleum engineers, because it is difficult and boring (i imagine, it's all pipes and oil and whatnot). However, oil companies make immense amounts of money from the work they do. Hence, they are paid a lot. Lots of people want to be early childhood teachers, because it is noble and rewarding, it is, actually, greatly valued by society, and is not that academically demanding (it is tremendously personally demanding, of course). However, primary schools are not exactly profitable. Hence, they are not paid a lot. So, i think the claim that "women make less remunerative life choices" does hold water. But here's the thing: that's not the problem. The problem is that the choices they happen to make are less remunerative, because of the operation of the above mechanism. The problem that needs fixing here is that people who choose to do work that is socially valuable but not directly connected to a mechanism of profit are not paid as well as those who do. The solution is something far more radical than just getting more women to take up engineering.
- vannevar 13y ago
  They are set according to how many people want to do the job. (supply) and how much money the employer can make by hiring someone (whence demand). Not exactly; they are set by what people are willing to pay. Short-term profitability is one factor an employer takes into consideration. ...primary schools are not exactly profitable. They are not profitable at all, which would mean teachers would not get paid at all under your model of supply and demand. I think what critics are getting at is that even ignoring the effects of sexism when men and women hold the same jobs, wages in male-dominated professions are driven by simplistic short-term profit considerations and discount social benefits (which translate ultimately into long-term profit for everyone). This results in systematic undervaluation of the kinds of work which tends to attract more women.
  - malandrew 13y ago
    "simplistic short-term profit considerations" --> "direct profit considerations" FTFY. For example, Petroleum engineering is anything but short-term. What matters is that there is a very direct attribution of profit to work done. The attribution to profit for work done in all the poorly paid professions is very very indirect.

by slvv 13y ago

malandrew 13y ago

"Careers in which men historically dominated, but which later become "female professions", pay less when done by women." Citation please? And is the converse true. i.e. Do careers that later became "male professions", pay more when done by men?

moomin 13y ago
Ask Grace Hopper... (and I think you'll find the answer was yes)
- malandrew 13y ago
  I couldn't find anything about what wage gap may have existed for her prior to 1964, but after June 11, 1964 until 1986 when she retired she was probably paid the same as men in the same position. Edit: Found some more information, showing that she was likely paid the same wage as men for the same position: "The pay and training received by the WAVES was identical to the men's."[0]. From a biographical blurb on her: "Rejected by the WAVES (Women Accepted for Volunteer Emergency Services) in 1942 for not weighing enough, she was finally admitted in December of 1943 and in 1944 was commissioned as a lieutenant junior grade, thus beginning her 42-year career with the Navy and her life-long relationship with computers." [0] http://www.sil.si.edu/smithsoniancontributions/AirSpace/text/SSAS-0007.txt http://www.sil.si.edu/smithsoniancontributions/AirSpace/text... [1] http://vcencyclopedia.vassar.edu/alumni/grace-murray-hopper.html http://vcencyclopedia.vassar.edu/alumni/grace-murray-hopper....
- drallison 13y ago
  Sad to say, Grace Murray Hopper died January 1, 1992. She broke down many sexual discrimination barriers. She is the second woman ever to have a Naval vessel named after her. (The USS Hopper (DDG-70) is an Arleigh Burke-class guided missile destroyer of the United States Navy.)

twic 13y ago

I am dubious about this "perceived to be less valuable to society and are therefore paid at a lower rate" idea. Wages are not set according to the social values of jobs. They are set according to how many people want to do the job. (supply) and how much money the employer can make by hiring someone (whence demand). There are not many people who want to be petroleum engineers, because it is difficult and boring (i imagine, it's all pipes and oil and whatnot). However, oil companies make immense amounts of money from the work they do. Hence, they are paid a lot. Lots of people want to be early childhood teachers, because it is noble and rewarding, it is, actually, greatly valued by society, and is not that academically demanding (it is tremendously personally demanding, of course). However, primary schools are not exactly profitable. Hence, they are not paid a lot. So, i think the claim that "women make less remunerative life choices" does hold water. But here's the thing: that's not the problem. The problem is that the choices they happen to make are less remunerative, because of the operation of the above mechanism. The problem that needs fixing here is that people who choose to do work that is socially valuable but not directly connected to a mechanism of profit are not paid as well as those who do. The solution is something far more radical than just getting more women to take up engineering.

vannevar 13y ago
They are set according to how many people want to do the job. (supply) and how much money the employer can make by hiring someone (whence demand). Not exactly; they are set by what people are willing to pay. Short-term profitability is one factor an employer takes into consideration. ...primary schools are not exactly profitable. They are not profitable at all, which would mean teachers would not get paid at all under your model of supply and demand. I think what critics are getting at is that even ignoring the effects of sexism when men and women hold the same jobs, wages in male-dominated professions are driven by simplistic short-term profit considerations and discount social benefits (which translate ultimately into long-term profit for everyone). This results in systematic undervaluation of the kinds of work which tends to attract more women.
- malandrew 13y ago
  "simplistic short-term profit considerations" --> "direct profit considerations" FTFY. For example, Petroleum engineering is anything but short-term. What matters is that there is a very direct attribution of profit to work done. The attribution to profit for work done in all the poorly paid professions is very very indirect.