8 ms·

Letters of Last Resort

65 points by kqr2 13y ago

Udo 13y ago
Now that's a great job interview question, because it's sort of a programming problem that also shows how a candidate thinks: formulate a letter of last resort. Knowing they'd have to work for a range of unexpected catastrophic situations, what are the priorities going to be and how will you make sure they're implemented if nobody's there to oversee them?
- blister 13y ago
  In the last year, I've interviewed 7 different people in my company (4 engineers, two ISDs, and 2 SMEs). I've been wanting to improve my interview skills for quite some time, so I've been trying to add an open-ended question of this nature to my interviews. Each and every single person that I've interviewed, even when told in advance "This is a critical thinking question, there is no wrong answer" have failed to even speculate at an answer. :(
  - Udo 13y ago
    I guess it depends on the mood of the rest of the interview. If it's all about getting a slew of technical quizzes right, chances are people will be intimidated or pissed-off by an open-ended question at the end. However, if the interview is more a "getting-to-know-each-other" thing that is free-form in general, this works much better. And I might be biased, but I think that's also a more productive style to interview in general. Getting tech knowledge right is something that doesn't transfer well between interviews and real work, so having them code and work under real-life conditions is a preferable procedure anyway. Like I said, I might be biased, but the best predictor for good work is, you know, good work ;) So in a shop that follows this philosophy, the interview becomes more of a first stage to determine if it makes sense to do one or more test work days.
    - ItendToDisagree 13y ago
      If it's all about getting a slew of technical quizzes right, chances are people will be intimidated or pissed-off by an open-ended question at the end. ^ That would be a really annoying shift of gears in an interview, particularly if the sudden open ended question seemed to have no relevance to the gig being interviewed for. At least I would probably be pretty annoyed and give really ridiculous answers/possibilities. But having interviewed people myself, I tend to grade my interest in a job by how the interview is given, and will cut the line if I think the person in charge of interviewing doesn't know what they are interviewing for/why they are asking the questions they are asking.
  - ronaldx 13y ago
    > "This is a critical thinking question, there is no wrong answer" This might be an 'exception that proves the rule'. By saying there is no wrong answer (in this case), you are illustrating that you have otherwise been strict on wrong answers. This is either going to be concerning, or a sudden change of pace which is difficult to manage.
- chrisbennet 13y ago
  So.. if my country was wiped out by foreign government (not even really elected by its population) how would I kill as many of their people (except the government, they would be protected in bomb shelters of course)? Might be a good interview question - for screening out people with empathy.
  - Udo 13y ago
    Wow, this is not at all what I meant. The scenario could be vastly different, it doesn't even have to be about nuclear submarines. And even if it was about nuclear subs, it's not about killing as many people as possible (wtf?), it's about choosing a sensible course of action beforehand for a catastrophic and chaotic event. ...and I think that's pretty clear when you read my comment. Are you choosing to misunderstand?
    - chrisbennet 13y ago
      I just saw your response to my comment. No, sincerely, it wasn't clear to me. I wasn't being deliberately obtuse. Letters of Last Resort are/were written in the context of the policy of Mutual Assured Destruction (M.A.D.) which was predicated on the premise that if you wiped me out, my retaliation would wipe you out. My comment was made with that in mind.
  - Houshalter 13y ago
    Without retaliation there is no consequence for a country to wipe out their enemies with a first strike. The Letters of Last Resort might say not to retaliate, but it's important that the enemy doesn't know that is your policy. It also likely includes instructions like whether to join an allied country, whether to surrender, whether to throw the nukes overboard so they can never be used, where to go, etc.
downer81 13y ago
I'm willing to bet that 99% of the letters defer to Allies/Commonwealth. Except Thatcher's, of course. Hers probably ordered retaliation.
downer80 13y ago
I'm willing to bet that 99% of the letters defer to Allies/Commonwealth. Except Thatcher's, of course. Hers probably ordered retaliation.
downer79 13y ago
I'm willing to bet that 99% of the letters defer to Allies/Commonwealth. Except Thatcher's, of course. Hers probably ordered retaliation.
shin_lao 13y ago
After the Hundred Years' War, it's kind of ironic to see that one of the possible orders for the last-resort British weapon is to place itself under French command.
- nl 13y ago
  Really?! I guess after that slightly more recent bit of trouble on the other side of the Atlantic[1] it's pretty ironic that one of the possible orders for the last-resort British weapon is to place itself under US command(!?). (As far as I can tell it is speculation that they would place themselves under French command) [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Revolutionary_War http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Revolutionary_War
  - caf 13y ago
    Of course postdating that is the Napoleonic Wars (and in the middle of that was the War of 1812)...
- arethuza 13y ago
  The UK nuclear submarines are based in Scotland, so you could just argue that it is a continuation of the Auld Alliance: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auld_Alliance http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auld_Alliance On a more serious note, there has been talk of the UK sharing aircraft carriers with France, so it isn't a completely daft idea (although certain sections of the UK public would probably prefer to attack France as a last resort - presumably aiming to miss the holiday homes, vineyards and ski resorts).
- brown9-2 13y ago
  Things have changed quite a bit in the past 600 years.
tommaxwell 13y ago
Episode #399 of This American Life discusses this.
- ultrasandwich 13y ago
  It's really good. Posting the podcast link here for the overseas folks who aren't familiar with the program: http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/399/contents-unknown http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/399/c...
- DrJ 13y ago
  I feel like this link was posted because last (current latest) podcast was this episode.
  - threepipeproblm 13y ago
    Yes this aired nationally on radio a few days ago and the poster failed to attribute. Faux pas.
cju 13y ago
It's strange to think that countries that never had this kind of weapon and maybe don't have a detailled nuclear doctrine might have to take such a decision in the middle of a crisis if they are "chosen".
girvo 13y ago
Out of curiosity, if some nuclear adversary decided to first-strike and wipe out England, how messed up would the UK be? It's a small, dense country, and (call me stupid), one armed nuclear sub could be wiped out fairly easily if we're talking about a power like this, right? Would all four, if armed, be able to do much damage back? I find the idea of letters of last resort fascinating...
- arethuza 13y ago
  Worth noting that the UK's nuclear deterrent is based in Scotland, not England. To get some idea of the likely outcome of a nuclear war for the UK I can suggest watching Threads: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Threads http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Threads One interesting thing about Threads is that it is based on a rather optimistic attack scenario based on an exercise called Square Leg: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Square_Leg http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Square_Leg
  - teh_klev 13y ago
    "Worth noting that the UK's nuclear deterrent is based in Scotland, not England." As a "Yes" voter I'm hoping we'll be able to send them back to England, preferably somewhere on the south coast.
    - walshemj 13y ago
      I doubt the voters in the constituency's in the areas hosting the bases will be very happy at losing a very well paid jobs And I am sure that some of the depressed areas of southern England woudl welcome these jobs with open arms - theres already suspicion that English dock workers where made redundant to protect Scottish jobs.
      - arethuza 13y ago
        The people of Argyll and Bute (the Scottish Parliament constituency containing the Coulport and Faslane bases) have voted for the SNP in recent Scottish Parliament elections: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argyll_and_Bute_%28Scottish_Parliament_constituency%29 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argyll_and_Bute_%28Scottish_Par... The MOD itself says that a total of only 520 civilian jobs would be lost if Trident was moved - and only 310 of those are definitely locals: http://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/political-news/labour-and-tories-under-fire-for-inflating-trident-job-losses.19262922 http://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/political-news/labour... And finally, don't you think some things are more important than money and jobs? I really liked Charlie Stross's account of how he changed his views on an "independent" nuclear deterrent: http://www.antipope.org/charlie/blog-static/2013/04/on-the-uk-and-nuclear-disarmam.html http://www.antipope.org/charlie/blog-static/2013/04/on-the-u... Personally, I changed my mind from being a reluctant supporter for the need for nuclear weapons while wandering round, of all places, Auschwitz-Birkenau, our guide made a comment about how although Auschwitz-Birkenau remains the very worst that we have achieved as as species a lot of countries, including the UK, calmly contemplate the use of weapons that would have far worse results. From that day I have felt very strongly about trying to remove nuclear weapons from my country and independence seems the most viable route to achieving that goal.
eponeponepon 13y ago
"There are no nukes. We've just been pretending all this time. They're just big metal tubes full of old laptops. Sorry. Find a nice island and settle down. Best, PM. PS: Sorry you've no women on board. One of the warheads is full of whisky and porn."
- arethuza 13y ago
  Yes, Prime Minister - Nuclear deterrent: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IX_d_vMKswE http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IX_d_vMKswE
  - masterstatesman 13y ago
    I love this part as well, when Sir Humphrey is arguing for Trident: https://www.youtube.com/v/XyJh3qKjSMk https://www.youtube.com/v/XyJh3qKjSMk "In the world of nuclear missiles, it is the Savile Row suit, the Rolls Royce Corniche, the Chateau Lafite 1945. It is the nuclear missile Harrods would sell you."
mistakoala 13y ago
Hennessy's book also mentions the possible involvement of the RAC or AA (can't remember which, but presumably the RAC) as part of the comms network for controlling the UK's nuclear capability. Off the top of my head, I think the idea was that, if the PM was out and about, he would make use of an RAC phone box (just like the police had TARDIS-like phone boxes, so did the breakdown rescue organisations) to issue instructions. A typically British, cobbled-together solution to some otherwise complex requirement.
- corin_ 13y ago
  It was actually the AA not the RAC, and the precise nature of the system in place doesn't entirely seem to be known publicly.
  - mistakoala 13y ago
    I wasn't suggesting that that was the precise nature of the system.
- arethuza 13y ago
  Worth noting that Hennessy was talking about the time of Harold Macmillan and the V-bombers. A great book: http://www.amazon.co.uk/The-Secret-State-Whitehall-Cold/dp/0141008350 http://www.amazon.co.uk/The-Secret-State-Whitehall-Cold/dp/0...
oneofthose 13y ago
Here's a the dramatized version of David Grieg's 2012 play "The Letter of Last Resort" produced for BBC Radio 4. I can recommend it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PwY9th-vmNY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PwY9th-vmNY
masterstatesman 13y ago
Good thing they updated the procedures just in time for Able Archer 83! 26 May 1983 minutes on discussing the last resort procedures: http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/SearchUI/details/C13497321?uri=C13497321 http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/SearchUI/details/C1... Able Archer on 8-9 November 1983: https://www.cia.gov/library/center-for-the-study-of-intelligence/csi-publications/books-and-monographs/a-cold-war-conundrum/source.htm https://www.cia.gov/library/center-for-the-study-of-intellig...

65 points by kqr2 13y ago

Udo 13y ago

Now that's a great job interview question, because it's sort of a programming problem that also shows how a candidate thinks: formulate a letter of last resort. Knowing they'd have to work for a range of unexpected catastrophic situations, what are the priorities going to be and how will you make sure they're implemented if nobody's there to oversee them?

blister 13y ago
In the last year, I've interviewed 7 different people in my company (4 engineers, two ISDs, and 2 SMEs). I've been wanting to improve my interview skills for quite some time, so I've been trying to add an open-ended question of this nature to my interviews. Each and every single person that I've interviewed, even when told in advance "This is a critical thinking question, there is no wrong answer" have failed to even speculate at an answer. :(
- Udo 13y ago
  I guess it depends on the mood of the rest of the interview. If it's all about getting a slew of technical quizzes right, chances are people will be intimidated or pissed-off by an open-ended question at the end. However, if the interview is more a "getting-to-know-each-other" thing that is free-form in general, this works much better. And I might be biased, but I think that's also a more productive style to interview in general. Getting tech knowledge right is something that doesn't transfer well between interviews and real work, so having them code and work under real-life conditions is a preferable procedure anyway. Like I said, I might be biased, but the best predictor for good work is, you know, good work ;) So in a shop that follows this philosophy, the interview becomes more of a first stage to determine if it makes sense to do one or more test work days.
  - ItendToDisagree 13y ago
    If it's all about getting a slew of technical quizzes right, chances are people will be intimidated or pissed-off by an open-ended question at the end. ^ That would be a really annoying shift of gears in an interview, particularly if the sudden open ended question seemed to have no relevance to the gig being interviewed for. At least I would probably be pretty annoyed and give really ridiculous answers/possibilities. But having interviewed people myself, I tend to grade my interest in a job by how the interview is given, and will cut the line if I think the person in charge of interviewing doesn't know what they are interviewing for/why they are asking the questions they are asking.
- ronaldx 13y ago
  > "This is a critical thinking question, there is no wrong answer" This might be an 'exception that proves the rule'. By saying there is no wrong answer (in this case), you are illustrating that you have otherwise been strict on wrong answers. This is either going to be concerning, or a sudden change of pace which is difficult to manage.
chrisbennet 13y ago
So.. if my country was wiped out by foreign government (not even really elected by its population) how would I kill as many of their people (except the government, they would be protected in bomb shelters of course)? Might be a good interview question - for screening out people with empathy.
- Udo 13y ago
  Wow, this is not at all what I meant. The scenario could be vastly different, it doesn't even have to be about nuclear submarines. And even if it was about nuclear subs, it's not about killing as many people as possible (wtf?), it's about choosing a sensible course of action beforehand for a catastrophic and chaotic event. ...and I think that's pretty clear when you read my comment. Are you choosing to misunderstand?
  - chrisbennet 13y ago
    I just saw your response to my comment. No, sincerely, it wasn't clear to me. I wasn't being deliberately obtuse. Letters of Last Resort are/were written in the context of the policy of Mutual Assured Destruction (M.A.D.) which was predicated on the premise that if you wiped me out, my retaliation would wipe you out. My comment was made with that in mind.
- Houshalter 13y ago
  Without retaliation there is no consequence for a country to wipe out their enemies with a first strike. The Letters of Last Resort might say not to retaliate, but it's important that the enemy doesn't know that is your policy. It also likely includes instructions like whether to join an allied country, whether to surrender, whether to throw the nukes overboard so they can never be used, where to go, etc.

downer81 13y ago

I'm willing to bet that 99% of the letters defer to Allies/Commonwealth. Except Thatcher's, of course. Hers probably ordered retaliation.

downer80 13y ago

I'm willing to bet that 99% of the letters defer to Allies/Commonwealth. Except Thatcher's, of course. Hers probably ordered retaliation.

downer79 13y ago

I'm willing to bet that 99% of the letters defer to Allies/Commonwealth. Except Thatcher's, of course. Hers probably ordered retaliation.

shin_lao 13y ago

After the Hundred Years' War, it's kind of ironic to see that one of the possible orders for the last-resort British weapon is to place itself under French command.

nl 13y ago
Really?! I guess after that slightly more recent bit of trouble on the other side of the Atlantic[1] it's pretty ironic that one of the possible orders for the last-resort British weapon is to place itself under US command(!?). (As far as I can tell it is speculation that they would place themselves under French command) [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Revolutionary_War http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Revolutionary_War
- caf 13y ago
  Of course postdating that is the Napoleonic Wars (and in the middle of that was the War of 1812)...
arethuza 13y ago
The UK nuclear submarines are based in Scotland, so you could just argue that it is a continuation of the Auld Alliance: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auld_Alliance http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auld_Alliance On a more serious note, there has been talk of the UK sharing aircraft carriers with France, so it isn't a completely daft idea (although certain sections of the UK public would probably prefer to attack France as a last resort - presumably aiming to miss the holiday homes, vineyards and ski resorts).
brown9-2 13y ago
Things have changed quite a bit in the past 600 years.

tommaxwell 13y ago

Episode #399 of This American Life discusses this.

ultrasandwich 13y ago
It's really good. Posting the podcast link here for the overseas folks who aren't familiar with the program: http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/399/contents-unknown http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/399/c...
DrJ 13y ago
I feel like this link was posted because last (current latest) podcast was this episode.
- threepipeproblm 13y ago
  Yes this aired nationally on radio a few days ago and the poster failed to attribute. Faux pas.

cju 13y ago

It's strange to think that countries that never had this kind of weapon and maybe don't have a detailled nuclear doctrine might have to take such a decision in the middle of a crisis if they are "chosen".

girvo 13y ago

Out of curiosity, if some nuclear adversary decided to first-strike and wipe out England, how messed up would the UK be? It's a small, dense country, and (call me stupid), one armed nuclear sub could be wiped out fairly easily if we're talking about a power like this, right? Would all four, if armed, be able to do much damage back? I find the idea of letters of last resort fascinating...

arethuza 13y ago
Worth noting that the UK's nuclear deterrent is based in Scotland, not England. To get some idea of the likely outcome of a nuclear war for the UK I can suggest watching Threads: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Threads http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Threads One interesting thing about Threads is that it is based on a rather optimistic attack scenario based on an exercise called Square Leg: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Square_Leg http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Square_Leg
- teh_klev 13y ago
  "Worth noting that the UK's nuclear deterrent is based in Scotland, not England." As a "Yes" voter I'm hoping we'll be able to send them back to England, preferably somewhere on the south coast.
  - walshemj 13y ago
    I doubt the voters in the constituency's in the areas hosting the bases will be very happy at losing a very well paid jobs And I am sure that some of the depressed areas of southern England woudl welcome these jobs with open arms - theres already suspicion that English dock workers where made redundant to protect Scottish jobs.
    - arethuza 13y ago
      The people of Argyll and Bute (the Scottish Parliament constituency containing the Coulport and Faslane bases) have voted for the SNP in recent Scottish Parliament elections: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argyll_and_Bute_%28Scottish_Parliament_constituency%29 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argyll_and_Bute_%28Scottish_Par... The MOD itself says that a total of only 520 civilian jobs would be lost if Trident was moved - and only 310 of those are definitely locals: http://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/political-news/labour-and-tories-under-fire-for-inflating-trident-job-losses.19262922 http://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/political-news/labour... And finally, don't you think some things are more important than money and jobs? I really liked Charlie Stross's account of how he changed his views on an "independent" nuclear deterrent: http://www.antipope.org/charlie/blog-static/2013/04/on-the-uk-and-nuclear-disarmam.html http://www.antipope.org/charlie/blog-static/2013/04/on-the-u... Personally, I changed my mind from being a reluctant supporter for the need for nuclear weapons while wandering round, of all places, Auschwitz-Birkenau, our guide made a comment about how although Auschwitz-Birkenau remains the very worst that we have achieved as as species a lot of countries, including the UK, calmly contemplate the use of weapons that would have far worse results. From that day I have felt very strongly about trying to remove nuclear weapons from my country and independence seems the most viable route to achieving that goal.

eponeponepon 13y ago

"There are no nukes. We've just been pretending all this time. They're just big metal tubes full of old laptops. Sorry. Find a nice island and settle down. Best, PM. PS: Sorry you've no women on board. One of the warheads is full of whisky and porn."

arethuza 13y ago
Yes, Prime Minister - Nuclear deterrent: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IX_d_vMKswE http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IX_d_vMKswE
- masterstatesman 13y ago
  I love this part as well, when Sir Humphrey is arguing for Trident: https://www.youtube.com/v/XyJh3qKjSMk https://www.youtube.com/v/XyJh3qKjSMk "In the world of nuclear missiles, it is the Savile Row suit, the Rolls Royce Corniche, the Chateau Lafite 1945. It is the nuclear missile Harrods would sell you."

mistakoala 13y ago

Hennessy's book also mentions the possible involvement of the RAC or AA (can't remember which, but presumably the RAC) as part of the comms network for controlling the UK's nuclear capability. Off the top of my head, I think the idea was that, if the PM was out and about, he would make use of an RAC phone box (just like the police had TARDIS-like phone boxes, so did the breakdown rescue organisations) to issue instructions. A typically British, cobbled-together solution to some otherwise complex requirement.

corin_ 13y ago
It was actually the AA not the RAC, and the precise nature of the system in place doesn't entirely seem to be known publicly.
- mistakoala 13y ago
  I wasn't suggesting that that was the precise nature of the system.
arethuza 13y ago
Worth noting that Hennessy was talking about the time of Harold Macmillan and the V-bombers. A great book: http://www.amazon.co.uk/The-Secret-State-Whitehall-Cold/dp/0141008350 http://www.amazon.co.uk/The-Secret-State-Whitehall-Cold/dp/0...

oneofthose 13y ago

Here's a the dramatized version of David Grieg's 2012 play "The Letter of Last Resort" produced for BBC Radio 4. I can recommend it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PwY9th-vmNY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PwY9th-vmNY

masterstatesman 13y ago

Good thing they updated the procedures just in time for Able Archer 83! 26 May 1983 minutes on discussing the last resort procedures: http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/SearchUI/details/C13497321?uri=C13497321 http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/SearchUI/details/C1... Able Archer on 8-9 November 1983: https://www.cia.gov/library/center-for-the-study-of-intelligence/csi-publications/books-and-monographs/a-cold-war-conundrum/source.htm https://www.cia.gov/library/center-for-the-study-of-intellig...