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Since my natural preference (and probably that of many here) would be more freedom I think it's important to be wary of wishful thinking. Even though I think th

Since my natural preference (and probably that of many here) would be more freedom I think it's important to be wary of wishful thinking. Even though I think the link between authoritarian institutions and bullying is real, there are too many variables at play to make such a direct assertion. Regardless, I favor less rules and more freedom for kids for it's own sake. If there are social and/or developmental benefits, that would be icing on the cake. Where I grew up (near Charlottesville, VA), I had acres of wilderness in my backyard and the surrounding area to explore with my friends. We would build make play forts, climb (real) trees, make bridges over creeks and rivers etc. In the winter we'd go sledding, unsupervised, on real hills that we discovered ourselves .. age ranges from 7 to 10. Nearby there were a couple old plantation houses (ruins) near the scene of various battles from the revolutionary to the civil war. One even had cannonballs embedded in the walls. To be clear, these were just there, not maintained as museums etc. They were a rumor passed from older kids to younger ones, each mini-generation re-discovering them and the wonders contained. I bet if our parents knew exactly what we were doing they would have been horrified, that was part of the fun. We did these things without their permission. When I was about 13, we moved to upper middle class suburban California. Nice, safe, maintained parks. Pretend islands with pretend castles, slides and playground equipment with signs displaying instructions for "proper use." Frankly, boring, synthetic and alarmingly sad.

invalidOrTaken 13y ago
>Even though I think the link between authoritarian institutions and bullying is real, there are too many variables at play to make such a direct assertion. On the contrary, the problem is that schools are insufficiently authoritarian. Low-level harassment by students goes unpunished, while outright retaliation (a well-deserved punch in the face) is punished. A lot of schools are in this weird uncanny valley between freedom and strict discipline. Both would create order, but choosing one in between will have the advantages of neither.
- kazagistar 13y ago
  I am not sure your ideal of perfect authoritarianism is possible. If you want to torment someone it is always going to be possible to do invisibly to casual observation. Restrictions merely determine the language of what harassment consists off, but those who are less well adjusted socially, who are unable to participate as effectively in whatever social maneuvering exists, will always be targeted.
  - invalidOrTaken 13y ago
    My impossible idea? I was not the one who coined the phrase "Zero tolerance."
    - ogreyonder 13y ago
      Yes, the idea you espouse. Yours, given that you promoted it. Or do you want to revise your statement?
- Zuider 13y ago
  That is the paradox of authoritarianism. No matter how comprehensive, it is always possible for an aggressor to fly under the radar and work the system against you. Hell, you don't even have to strike back, you can be singled out for punishment by the authorities simply for being attacked, which marks you out as 'being involved in trouble making'. The actual aggressor will have melted from the scene at this stage, leaving you in the spotlight.
- argumentum 13y ago
  You have too much belief the authorities in this case will act fairly and in the interest of the vulnerable. From my personal experience (as a frequent "victim" mainly due to skipping a couple grades), I have absolutely zero confidence in this outcome. You're also failing to consider that being under strict authority might itself make people behave worse. You see this in every totalitarian regime, from the Nazis to the Communists and to the Taliban.
lispsil 13y ago
I witnessed this in highschool. The first school I went to was extremely authoritarian and was grade 8-12. Fights and bullies a common occurrence. I didn't have a problem dealing with them but other kids had a brutal time, pushed down the stairs breaking their jaws, fights everyday, kids waiting around the field after dark to catch you crossing it by yourself for a brutal beating, one kid had his hair lit on fire in chem 11 class, police would shake the students down for drugs and weapons almost every week. I got kicked out for redboxing the school payphone and for reciting the lyrics to Nazi school and saluting my detention room minders, which is some old 80s song on the KBD comps http://youtu.be/QJ5kuA_66u8 http://youtu.be/QJ5kuA_66u8 I was sent by my country's ministry of education to a school of 'criminal youth' with 1200 students and no rules that was 10-12 grade. Not one fight. Many of the kids were serious gangsters involved in operating drug lines or fresh out of juvie hall. With no rules to rebel against everybody hung out including geeky neckbeards with Christian Audiger wearing Gs. They told us it was up to us to pass or fail, they weren't responsible and we could do anything we wanted including not showing up. Meanwhile my friends would lament of the stifling rules and regulations back in my old school that saw endemic violence and brutality. The more you try to control people the worse they become it seems. My first week at the new school I acted like I was still in an institution by booting my books down the halls, and generally being a complete goof. Nobody paid attention to me and my antics didn't move me up the social ladder. There's no reason to rebel against a place without any rules that tells you your own actions will decide if you sink or swim. No nannies phoning home to your parents saying you didn't show up, no detention, no late slips, no punishment for disrupting a class either. We would talk to each other in the middle of a lecture and the teacher didn't go on a massive power trip trying to punish and humiliate us in front of all the other students. We were just told that if we didn't listen or respect the teachers we'd fail in life, so we listened. Compare that to my last school when in grade 8 I was dragged into a Socials 12 class because the instructor thought I made a racist comment in the hallways when it was some other older kids who did while passing by. He basically encouraged the other Grade 12 students to 'teach me a lesson' through violence and would harass me on a regular basis because of this. I reacted like any other kid, become a total nightmare student and get kicked out.
- goggles99 13y ago
  This is the strangest sounding story that I have ever heard. It is either fake, or there were other factors going on such the juveniles with true behavioral problems just never bothered showing up to school because they weren't required to. A school with absolutely no rules? So you could cheat on tests openly? you could walk through the campus naked? you could sell or do drugs in class? You could vandalize the campus? Threaten to kill the teacher? You could break into the school's office or computer system and change your grades? Bribe the graders? ETC? A bunch of 16-18 year old kids with no such requirement following all the rules once they aren't enforced? Nice story. I call BS. Source: Documented history of innate human nature and the 100% failures of all utopian ideas like the one you fabricated... I would downvote you if I could. Your 6 day old account probably will be abandoned in a week anyway.

invalidOrTaken 13y ago

>Even though I think the link between authoritarian institutions and bullying is real, there are too many variables at play to make such a direct assertion. On the contrary, the problem is that schools are insufficiently authoritarian. Low-level harassment by students goes unpunished, while outright retaliation (a well-deserved punch in the face) is punished. A lot of schools are in this weird uncanny valley between freedom and strict discipline. Both would create order, but choosing one in between will have the advantages of neither.

kazagistar 13y ago
I am not sure your ideal of perfect authoritarianism is possible. If you want to torment someone it is always going to be possible to do invisibly to casual observation. Restrictions merely determine the language of what harassment consists off, but those who are less well adjusted socially, who are unable to participate as effectively in whatever social maneuvering exists, will always be targeted.
- invalidOrTaken 13y ago
  My impossible idea? I was not the one who coined the phrase "Zero tolerance."
  - ogreyonder 13y ago
    Yes, the idea you espouse. Yours, given that you promoted it. Or do you want to revise your statement?
Zuider 13y ago
That is the paradox of authoritarianism. No matter how comprehensive, it is always possible for an aggressor to fly under the radar and work the system against you. Hell, you don't even have to strike back, you can be singled out for punishment by the authorities simply for being attacked, which marks you out as 'being involved in trouble making'. The actual aggressor will have melted from the scene at this stage, leaving you in the spotlight.
argumentum 13y ago
You have too much belief the authorities in this case will act fairly and in the interest of the vulnerable. From my personal experience (as a frequent "victim" mainly due to skipping a couple grades), I have absolutely zero confidence in this outcome. You're also failing to consider that being under strict authority might itself make people behave worse. You see this in every totalitarian regime, from the Nazis to the Communists and to the Taliban.

lispsil 13y ago

I witnessed this in highschool. The first school I went to was extremely authoritarian and was grade 8-12. Fights and bullies a common occurrence. I didn't have a problem dealing with them but other kids had a brutal time, pushed down the stairs breaking their jaws, fights everyday, kids waiting around the field after dark to catch you crossing it by yourself for a brutal beating, one kid had his hair lit on fire in chem 11 class, police would shake the students down for drugs and weapons almost every week. I got kicked out for redboxing the school payphone and for reciting the lyrics to Nazi school and saluting my detention room minders, which is some old 80s song on the KBD comps http://youtu.be/QJ5kuA_66u8 http://youtu.be/QJ5kuA_66u8 I was sent by my country's ministry of education to a school of 'criminal youth' with 1200 students and no rules that was 10-12 grade. Not one fight. Many of the kids were serious gangsters involved in operating drug lines or fresh out of juvie hall. With no rules to rebel against everybody hung out including geeky neckbeards with Christian Audiger wearing Gs. They told us it was up to us to pass or fail, they weren't responsible and we could do anything we wanted including not showing up. Meanwhile my friends would lament of the stifling rules and regulations back in my old school that saw endemic violence and brutality. The more you try to control people the worse they become it seems. My first week at the new school I acted like I was still in an institution by booting my books down the halls, and generally being a complete goof. Nobody paid attention to me and my antics didn't move me up the social ladder. There's no reason to rebel against a place without any rules that tells you your own actions will decide if you sink or swim. No nannies phoning home to your parents saying you didn't show up, no detention, no late slips, no punishment for disrupting a class either. We would talk to each other in the middle of a lecture and the teacher didn't go on a massive power trip trying to punish and humiliate us in front of all the other students. We were just told that if we didn't listen or respect the teachers we'd fail in life, so we listened. Compare that to my last school when in grade 8 I was dragged into a Socials 12 class because the instructor thought I made a racist comment in the hallways when it was some other older kids who did while passing by. He basically encouraged the other Grade 12 students to 'teach me a lesson' through violence and would harass me on a regular basis because of this. I reacted like any other kid, become a total nightmare student and get kicked out.

goggles99 13y ago
This is the strangest sounding story that I have ever heard. It is either fake, or there were other factors going on such the juveniles with true behavioral problems just never bothered showing up to school because they weren't required to. A school with absolutely no rules? So you could cheat on tests openly? you could walk through the campus naked? you could sell or do drugs in class? You could vandalize the campus? Threaten to kill the teacher? You could break into the school's office or computer system and change your grades? Bribe the graders? ETC? A bunch of 16-18 year old kids with no such requirement following all the rules once they aren't enforced? Nice story. I call BS. Source: Documented history of innate human nature and the 100% failures of all utopian ideas like the one you fabricated... I would downvote you if I could. Your 6 day old account probably will be abandoned in a week anyway.