4 ms·

You seem to equate riches with inequality. Just because a country is richer doesn't mean there is more inequality. In fact, many of the poor countries have star

You seem to equate riches with inequality. Just because a country is richer doesn't mean there is more inequality. In fact, many of the poor countries have startling inequality in comparison. Now compare Western Europe and the U.S.: They're capitalist, but it's hard to find "empirical" evidence that unbounded Darwinian capitalism is superior in this part of the world, since most of these countries top the U.S. in nearly every measure of human development--life expectancy, literacy, economic freedom, social mobility, and so on.

harryh 13y ago
And yes, I'm nearly certain, more people move from Western Europe to the US than vice versa. Perhaps all of those measures of human development aren't all they're cracked up to be in comparison to other things? Actions reveal preferences.
- thirsteh 13y ago
  Or, perhaps, it's easier for someone of means to emigrate to a country where they can earn more money than it is for someone with few means to emigrate to a country where they would be better off.
  - harryh 13y ago
    I don't understand what you are trying to say here.
    - thirsteh 13y ago
      Indeed.
      - harryh 13y ago
        No really. All I'm saying is that if you could perhaps clarify the point you were trying to make it would make it easier for me to respond intelligently. Your wording was just a bit confusing?
        thirsteh 13y ago
        See my reply to tptacek: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7164350 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7164350
  - tptacek 13y ago
    Aren't you making his point for him, then?
    - thirsteh 13y ago
      I don't think so. When I say better off, I'm talking about quality of life, not money. Surely many of the American poor would want to live in Sweden if they knew how high the quality of life is for low-income earners in comparison to theirs -- but because they are poor they have very little chance of ever getting emigrating to Europe. Conversely, someone who's fairly successful in Sweden might realize that they could be earning much more money in the United States--because of the income inequality--and thus might want to emigrate to the U.S. Chances are they'd have a much better chance of getting there, too. I live in the U.S., but grew up in Europe. If I didn't have skills that were highly sought after, I wouldn't want to live here. (FWIW, the bigger reason I do live here is that I have immediate family in the states.) I'll bet you that's the case for most people emigrating here from Western Europe.
      - harryh 13y ago
        So you're saying that the net positive migration from countries like Sweden to countries like the US is due to the fact that generally only relatively successful people have the ability to immigrate? And that if all classes of society were able to move freely that the net migration would be in the other direction? I'm willing to admit that this is possible, but at this point that sounds like a hypothesis than anything approaching a definitive statement about how reality actually works. Do you have any evidence to support this claim?
        thirsteh 13y ago
        > So you're saying that the net positive migration from countries like Sweden to countries like the US is due to the fact that generally only relatively successful people have the ability to immigrate? And that if all classes of society were able to move freely that the net migration would be in the other direction? Yes. > Do you have any evidence to support this claim? I don't. Just a lot of anecdotal evidence from a life spent living in different European countries and U.S. states, talking to people and learning about their lives. I do think that logic follows that a society with both a high standard of living and high equality would be a more attractive target for a low-income earner than one with a high standard of living but high inequality, but I am unsure if this means that, for example, Americans would actually want to emigrate to Sweden if they didn't know much about it. There are still a lot of misconceptions about what "socialism" means in Europe, how much freedom the U.S. has and Europe doesn't, and so on. (I think that this is part of the reason that, if true, the U.S. sees more traffic from Europe: The entire Western world grows up with American movies, TV, songs, etc., but many Americans don't know very much about Europe other than that they used to be the HQ of nazis and other socialists. But yes, it's just speculation.)

harryh 13y ago

And yes, I'm nearly certain, more people move from Western Europe to the US than vice versa. Perhaps all of those measures of human development aren't all they're cracked up to be in comparison to other things? Actions reveal preferences.

thirsteh 13y ago
Or, perhaps, it's easier for someone of means to emigrate to a country where they can earn more money than it is for someone with few means to emigrate to a country where they would be better off.
- harryh 13y ago
  I don't understand what you are trying to say here.
  - thirsteh 13y ago
    Indeed.
    - harryh 13y ago
      No really. All I'm saying is that if you could perhaps clarify the point you were trying to make it would make it easier for me to respond intelligently. Your wording was just a bit confusing?
      - thirsteh 13y ago
        See my reply to tptacek: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7164350 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7164350
- tptacek 13y ago
  Aren't you making his point for him, then?
  - thirsteh 13y ago
    I don't think so. When I say better off, I'm talking about quality of life, not money. Surely many of the American poor would want to live in Sweden if they knew how high the quality of life is for low-income earners in comparison to theirs -- but because they are poor they have very little chance of ever getting emigrating to Europe. Conversely, someone who's fairly successful in Sweden might realize that they could be earning much more money in the United States--because of the income inequality--and thus might want to emigrate to the U.S. Chances are they'd have a much better chance of getting there, too. I live in the U.S., but grew up in Europe. If I didn't have skills that were highly sought after, I wouldn't want to live here. (FWIW, the bigger reason I do live here is that I have immediate family in the states.) I'll bet you that's the case for most people emigrating here from Western Europe.
    - harryh 13y ago
      So you're saying that the net positive migration from countries like Sweden to countries like the US is due to the fact that generally only relatively successful people have the ability to immigrate? And that if all classes of society were able to move freely that the net migration would be in the other direction? I'm willing to admit that this is possible, but at this point that sounds like a hypothesis than anything approaching a definitive statement about how reality actually works. Do you have any evidence to support this claim?
      - thirsteh 13y ago
        > So you're saying that the net positive migration from countries like Sweden to countries like the US is due to the fact that generally only relatively successful people have the ability to immigrate? And that if all classes of society were able to move freely that the net migration would be in the other direction? Yes. > Do you have any evidence to support this claim? I don't. Just a lot of anecdotal evidence from a life spent living in different European countries and U.S. states, talking to people and learning about their lives. I do think that logic follows that a society with both a high standard of living and high equality would be a more attractive target for a low-income earner than one with a high standard of living but high inequality, but I am unsure if this means that, for example, Americans would actually want to emigrate to Sweden if they didn't know much about it. There are still a lot of misconceptions about what "socialism" means in Europe, how much freedom the U.S. has and Europe doesn't, and so on. (I think that this is part of the reason that, if true, the U.S. sees more traffic from Europe: The entire Western world grows up with American movies, TV, songs, etc., but many Americans don't know very much about Europe other than that they used to be the HQ of nazis and other socialists. But yes, it's just speculation.)