8 ms·

Show HN: Why sign a NDA when you can just pinky swear instead?

63 points by mjhea0 13y ago

deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
ycmike 13y ago
I got a kick out of this. Great project.
ntumlin 13y ago
How enforceable is this? I like the idea and I remember reading something (possibly written by pg) about binding text messages, but if I wanted to actually use this how would I convince someone intent on me signing an NDA. I hope I'm not over-analyzing something potentially made in jest, but I'm fascinated on what it takes to make your word legally binding.
- patio11 13y ago
  I think the point is to communicate "I would prefer an agreement enforced by social norms to one enforced by legal norms here." This is similar to my all-purpose dodge: "My professional discretion is free. If you want a formal contract I will be happy to execute it along with my formal invoice."
  - mjhea0 13y ago
    yes. something of that nature.
  - andrewfong 13y ago
    It's not a very good dodge. Signing anything, even something done in jest, creates more risk than if you hadn't.
    - scott_s 13y ago
      If you're also sending an invoice, I don't think it counts as "in jest."
  - stan_rogers 13y ago
    The problem being that the parties to a pinky swear are released from their obligations under that agreement in the presence of a double-dog dare. There is a reason why there are legal norms.
- gojomo 13y ago
  IANAL, but standing alone, with no exchange of 'consideration', and only signed/stated by one party, it likely doesn't create much of a legal obligation. Combined with other communication - perhaps as one of a pair of 'pinky-swears', each stating one party's offering in return for the others' - it might contribute part of a larger commitment. After all, a contract doesn't have to be written - it's just wise to do so for the sake of clarity. The exercise of writing down a mutual understanding, even if it's not a legally strong contract, can still be useful in reducing the risk of misunderstandings.
  - dctoedt 13y ago
    > IANAL, but standing alone, with no exchange of 'consideration', and only signed/stated by one party, it likely doesn't create much of a legal obligation. That's not always the case. For example: "The doctrine of promissory estoppel prevents one party from withdrawing a promise made to a second party if the latter has reasonably relied on that promise." (From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estoppel#Promissory_estoppel. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estoppel#Promissory_estoppel.)
bertil 13y ago
It is funny, but I doubt is resolves the main issue with NDAs: they tend to be enforced by people who put too much value on ideas, will over-associate future successes to the extended memories of their ideas, and who underestimate how unoriginal they ideas actually are. Even being an hermit in the middle of the Lapland forest, I have seen too many unrelated people suggest to me similar ideas within weeks far too many times not to see any NDA on anything not fully developed as too high a liability to sign.
- saryant 13y ago
  The dumbest NDA I ever saw was at a 3 Day Startup event I helped run. This loser (whose idea absolutely sucked) actually had the audacity to make the first slide of his deck an NDA and then read it aloud to the entire audience which consisted almost entirely of college kids. The idea was an online tutoring site. (Did I just break the law?) That was the magic he didn't want us telling the world about. I just stood in the back laughing. The domain for his company hadn't actually been registered—I half-considered buying it right then just to screw with him out of spite.
  - shangxiao 13y ago
    Did you end up explaining to him why NDA's may be counterproductive? Sounds like a valuable lesson he could've learnt ;)
    - saryant 13y ago
      No. I couldn't stand him so I just let his reputation in the community self-implode until he moved back to the east coast. Dick move? Probably but he really got on my nerves.
      - dnautics 13y ago
        Inaction is rarely if ever a 'dick move' (unless you promised action)
    - rmc 13y ago
bulatb 13y ago
Grammar nits: "A NDA" should say "an NDA." The ellipsis should be three dots, and there shouldn't be a space before it.
- jonah 13y ago
  Punctuation nit: an ellipsis is an actual character… … or …
- mjhea0 13y ago
  updated. just for you. <3
- eatmyshorts 13y ago
  Actually, both are acceptable in this case. If you read the abbreviation using the words they stand for, i.e. "non-disclosure agreement", then "a" is correct. If you read the abbreviation as letters, i.e. "N-D-A", then "an" is correct. Source: http://www.gpuss.co.uk/english_usage/a_or_an.htm http://www.gpuss.co.uk/english_usage/a_or_an.htm
cfinke 13y ago
http://friendda.org/ http://friendda.org/ "WHEREAS I possess a bright idea that I am choosing to disclose to you, The Advisor, with the mutual understanding that you are my friend and that you will not screw me."
gourneau 13y ago
My friend and I made almost exactly the same thing in Python about 2 years ago. http://pinkyswears.herokuapp.com/ http://pinkyswears.herokuapp.com/ https://github.com/yuvadm/pinkyswear https://github.com/yuvadm/pinkyswear
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]
- tdumitrescu 13y ago
  Whoa. Those are eerily similar.
  - shrikant 13y ago
    As are the (non-Bootstrap) element classes, names and IDs in the code...
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]
judk 13y ago
I don't get it. It is just a form where you can write your own NDA.
- collyw 13y ago
  And it also sounds kind of childish. If you are going to charge a customer a high rate as a consultant, then asking them to sign this seems somewhat unprofessional.
ramigb 13y ago
So the point of this is ... "Ideas are not important"?
- brubaker 13y ago
  Ideas are a dime a dozen. Viable implementation is a different story.
- mordae 13y ago
  Not as much as execution.
- 6d0debc071 13y ago
  Common ideas are unlikely to be protected from competition by an NDA and constrain the other person's actions in a fairly significant way. Uncommon ideas are innately protected by requiring consecutive insights in a subject area which others are highly unlikely (in the sense that if you require 15 ideas that someone might or might not have from a subject area, there's a three in a hundred thousand chance of whoever someone talks to about it having that overlap) to be grocked and spread to someone else who's going to leverage it. In either case it's difficult to see why someone would sign an NDA, that is largely to your benefit and the exclusion of theirs. Asking them to do so is roughly equivalent to the claim you're about to show them a unicorn; a simple, effective idea that somehow the rest of humanity has missed.
optimiz3 13y ago
Turned down an "opportunity" to interview at Amazon once because of their particularly onerous NDAs. I worked for a competing company, and Amazon's recruiter couldn't get it through her head that if I signed their NDA, my current employer would be exposed to potentially false but hard to disprove claims that Amazon's trade secrets had been leaked. They kept trying to get me to sign, so I told them that as a professional my obligation was still to my current employer, and respectfully declined to continue. If you have super secret stuff, don't tell it to people.
- rmc 13y ago
  "Would Amazon like to hire someone who turns their back on their current employer?"
danpalmer 13y ago
I think a lot of developers and designers underestimate the reasons for NDAs. I have been asked to sign them for most places I've worked, and have been more than happy to do so. - What if you deal with customer data? I worked at an analytics company, and "company x" might not like you to disclose that they get 100,000 hits a month. - What if you deal with security issues? I worked as a pen-tester and our clients required certain levels of NDA or security clearance. It's not all about protecting ideas. Very often it's about protecting customer data, or it's a requirement from much higher up chain.
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]
reqturtle 13y ago
Exactly facilitate pinky swears. U get it, G! -Bent
ageigs 13y ago
We created Shake (http://shakelaw.com http://shakelaw.com) to strike a balance between simple, short, plain-English language, and legal validity (marrying those two is harder than you might think). Like them or not, NDAs are signed all the time (we surveyed nearly 100 startups and found that the average CEO/Founder signs 3/month). I was surprised by that number, but that's what the respondents said. I don't advocate signing NDAs for everything, but we were aiming for a middle ground between a pinky swear and a traditional NDA full of legal jargon. Simplifying and standardizing the language and making them easy to create and sign (we started on iOS) takes some of the formality and awkwardness out of NDAs (and other agreements) without giving up protections or professionalism. Disclosure: I'm the CEO of Shake, which is free if you want to check it out.
- bertil 13y ago
  I probably can't really use because I'm not in the US, but thank you so much for that. Now, to be completely happy, I just need to choose what torture instrument I'll use on whomever wrote Apple's EULAs, and I'll be a happy man.

63 points by mjhea0 13y ago

deleted 13y ago

[deleted]

ycmike 13y ago

I got a kick out of this. Great project.

ntumlin 13y ago

How enforceable is this? I like the idea and I remember reading something (possibly written by pg) about binding text messages, but if I wanted to actually use this how would I convince someone intent on me signing an NDA. I hope I'm not over-analyzing something potentially made in jest, but I'm fascinated on what it takes to make your word legally binding.

patio11 13y ago
I think the point is to communicate "I would prefer an agreement enforced by social norms to one enforced by legal norms here." This is similar to my all-purpose dodge: "My professional discretion is free. If you want a formal contract I will be happy to execute it along with my formal invoice."
- mjhea0 13y ago
  yes. something of that nature.
- andrewfong 13y ago
  It's not a very good dodge. Signing anything, even something done in jest, creates more risk than if you hadn't.
  - scott_s 13y ago
    If you're also sending an invoice, I don't think it counts as "in jest."
- stan_rogers 13y ago
  The problem being that the parties to a pinky swear are released from their obligations under that agreement in the presence of a double-dog dare. There is a reason why there are legal norms.
gojomo 13y ago
IANAL, but standing alone, with no exchange of 'consideration', and only signed/stated by one party, it likely doesn't create much of a legal obligation. Combined with other communication - perhaps as one of a pair of 'pinky-swears', each stating one party's offering in return for the others' - it might contribute part of a larger commitment. After all, a contract doesn't have to be written - it's just wise to do so for the sake of clarity. The exercise of writing down a mutual understanding, even if it's not a legally strong contract, can still be useful in reducing the risk of misunderstandings.
- dctoedt 13y ago
  > IANAL, but standing alone, with no exchange of 'consideration', and only signed/stated by one party, it likely doesn't create much of a legal obligation. That's not always the case. For example: "The doctrine of promissory estoppel prevents one party from withdrawing a promise made to a second party if the latter has reasonably relied on that promise." (From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estoppel#Promissory_estoppel. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estoppel#Promissory_estoppel.)

bertil 13y ago

It is funny, but I doubt is resolves the main issue with NDAs: they tend to be enforced by people who put too much value on ideas, will over-associate future successes to the extended memories of their ideas, and who underestimate how unoriginal they ideas actually are. Even being an hermit in the middle of the Lapland forest, I have seen too many unrelated people suggest to me similar ideas within weeks far too many times not to see any NDA on anything not fully developed as too high a liability to sign.

saryant 13y ago
The dumbest NDA I ever saw was at a 3 Day Startup event I helped run. This loser (whose idea absolutely sucked) actually had the audacity to make the first slide of his deck an NDA and then read it aloud to the entire audience which consisted almost entirely of college kids. The idea was an online tutoring site. (Did I just break the law?) That was the magic he didn't want us telling the world about. I just stood in the back laughing. The domain for his company hadn't actually been registered—I half-considered buying it right then just to screw with him out of spite.
- shangxiao 13y ago
  Did you end up explaining to him why NDA's may be counterproductive? Sounds like a valuable lesson he could've learnt ;)
  - saryant 13y ago
    No. I couldn't stand him so I just let his reputation in the community self-implode until he moved back to the east coast. Dick move? Probably but he really got on my nerves.
    - dnautics 13y ago
      Inaction is rarely if ever a 'dick move' (unless you promised action)
  - rmc 13y ago

bulatb 13y ago

Grammar nits: "A NDA" should say "an NDA." The ellipsis should be three dots, and there shouldn't be a space before it.

jonah 13y ago
Punctuation nit: an ellipsis is an actual character… … or …
mjhea0 13y ago
updated. just for you. <3
eatmyshorts 13y ago
Actually, both are acceptable in this case. If you read the abbreviation using the words they stand for, i.e. "non-disclosure agreement", then "a" is correct. If you read the abbreviation as letters, i.e. "N-D-A", then "an" is correct. Source: http://www.gpuss.co.uk/english_usage/a_or_an.htm http://www.gpuss.co.uk/english_usage/a_or_an.htm

cfinke 13y ago

http://friendda.org/ http://friendda.org/ "WHEREAS I possess a bright idea that I am choosing to disclose to you, The Advisor, with the mutual understanding that you are my friend and that you will not screw me."

gourneau 13y ago

My friend and I made almost exactly the same thing in Python about 2 years ago. http://pinkyswears.herokuapp.com/ http://pinkyswears.herokuapp.com/ https://github.com/yuvadm/pinkyswear https://github.com/yuvadm/pinkyswear

deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
tdumitrescu 13y ago
Whoa. Those are eerily similar.
- shrikant 13y ago
  As are the (non-Bootstrap) element classes, names and IDs in the code...
deleted 13y ago
[deleted]

judk 13y ago

I don't get it. It is just a form where you can write your own NDA.

collyw 13y ago
And it also sounds kind of childish. If you are going to charge a customer a high rate as a consultant, then asking them to sign this seems somewhat unprofessional.

ramigb 13y ago

So the point of this is ... "Ideas are not important"?

brubaker 13y ago
Ideas are a dime a dozen. Viable implementation is a different story.
mordae 13y ago
Not as much as execution.
6d0debc071 13y ago
Common ideas are unlikely to be protected from competition by an NDA and constrain the other person's actions in a fairly significant way. Uncommon ideas are innately protected by requiring consecutive insights in a subject area which others are highly unlikely (in the sense that if you require 15 ideas that someone might or might not have from a subject area, there's a three in a hundred thousand chance of whoever someone talks to about it having that overlap) to be grocked and spread to someone else who's going to leverage it. In either case it's difficult to see why someone would sign an NDA, that is largely to your benefit and the exclusion of theirs. Asking them to do so is roughly equivalent to the claim you're about to show them a unicorn; a simple, effective idea that somehow the rest of humanity has missed.

optimiz3 13y ago

Turned down an "opportunity" to interview at Amazon once because of their particularly onerous NDAs. I worked for a competing company, and Amazon's recruiter couldn't get it through her head that if I signed their NDA, my current employer would be exposed to potentially false but hard to disprove claims that Amazon's trade secrets had been leaked. They kept trying to get me to sign, so I told them that as a professional my obligation was still to my current employer, and respectfully declined to continue. If you have super secret stuff, don't tell it to people.

rmc 13y ago
"Would Amazon like to hire someone who turns their back on their current employer?"

danpalmer 13y ago

I think a lot of developers and designers underestimate the reasons for NDAs. I have been asked to sign them for most places I've worked, and have been more than happy to do so. - What if you deal with customer data? I worked at an analytics company, and "company x" might not like you to disclose that they get 100,000 hits a month. - What if you deal with security issues? I worked as a pen-tester and our clients required certain levels of NDA or security clearance. It's not all about protecting ideas. Very often it's about protecting customer data, or it's a requirement from much higher up chain.

deleted 13y ago
[deleted]

reqturtle 13y ago

Exactly facilitate pinky swears. U get it, G! -Bent

ageigs 13y ago

We created Shake (http://shakelaw.com http://shakelaw.com) to strike a balance between simple, short, plain-English language, and legal validity (marrying those two is harder than you might think). Like them or not, NDAs are signed all the time (we surveyed nearly 100 startups and found that the average CEO/Founder signs 3/month). I was surprised by that number, but that's what the respondents said. I don't advocate signing NDAs for everything, but we were aiming for a middle ground between a pinky swear and a traditional NDA full of legal jargon. Simplifying and standardizing the language and making them easy to create and sign (we started on iOS) takes some of the formality and awkwardness out of NDAs (and other agreements) without giving up protections or professionalism. Disclosure: I'm the CEO of Shake, which is free if you want to check it out.

bertil 13y ago
I probably can't really use because I'm not in the US, but thank you so much for that. Now, to be completely happy, I just need to choose what torture instrument I'll use on whomever wrote Apple's EULAs, and I'll be a happy man.