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There are quite a few startup jobs doing interesting things that don't require fake "passion" or crazy hours, especially outside the Valley bubble. In real lif

by bri3d 13y ago

There are quite a few startup jobs doing interesting things that don't require fake "passion" or crazy hours, especially outside the Valley bubble. In real life there isn't a dichotomy between getting a so-called career job at some stodgy company and frat-house crazy-hours fake-"passion" startups in the Valley. Perpetuating that dichotomy is dishonest and helps keep startup employee diversity, treatment, and compensation down. The people I work with aren't "career programmers who don't particularly love it." They're not putting in a "minimum effort." They certainly know about suffix trees and bloom filters. They're years-of-experience, extremely talented people who put in unbelievable effort to achieve our goals at work, but they also go home to families and other passions.

nilkn 13y ago
I find your post interesting because I never said anything about "frat-house crazy-hours." I only suggested that certain jobs might want more of this amorphous "passion" and that many jobs don't require it at all, and you're the one who concluded this must mean "crazy-hours." To me, it means exactly what you described: people who put in unbelievable effort at work, who probably love what they do, and who are extremely talented and take pride in that talent. None of that necessarily translates to extra hours. None of that translates into loving work more than family. None of that translates into not going home home to a family and the rest of life after work. But, to me, it does translate to passion.
- bri3d 13y ago
  I wrote my comment with your last paragraph in mind, which directly attaches hours to compensation and "lifestyle jobs."
  - nilkn 13y ago
    That's fair enough, but my last paragraph was directed at a very specific demographic. There are a lot of posters on HN who expect to make $200k+, at least, as a programmer. The typical job paying in that range tends to be fairly demanding. Do you disagree with that? I'm not saying there aren't exceptions, but the vast majority of developers I know with incomes above and beyond the $200k mark have put in a huge amount of effort to get to that position. They're clearly passionate about something--either programming or, well, just money. Also, for what it's worth, "lifestyle businesses" are often tied directly to having lower hours.
    - collyw 13y ago
      Programming is unusual that some people may have incredible mathematical talent which will allow some to be a LOT better than other without much effort (in specific areas). I am not in that category. Above average, keen to learn and a decent bit of background. Not earning anywhere near 200k+, but I am living inn Barcelona which is pretty cool. Don't do more than 40hours per week usually either.

by bri3d 13y ago

nilkn 13y ago

I find your post interesting because I never said anything about "frat-house crazy-hours." I only suggested that certain jobs might want more of this amorphous "passion" and that many jobs don't require it at all, and you're the one who concluded this must mean "crazy-hours." To me, it means exactly what you described: people who put in unbelievable effort at work, who probably love what they do, and who are extremely talented and take pride in that talent. None of that necessarily translates to extra hours. None of that translates into loving work more than family. None of that translates into not going home home to a family and the rest of life after work. But, to me, it does translate to passion.

bri3d 13y ago
I wrote my comment with your last paragraph in mind, which directly attaches hours to compensation and "lifestyle jobs."
- nilkn 13y ago
  That's fair enough, but my last paragraph was directed at a very specific demographic. There are a lot of posters on HN who expect to make $200k+, at least, as a programmer. The typical job paying in that range tends to be fairly demanding. Do you disagree with that? I'm not saying there aren't exceptions, but the vast majority of developers I know with incomes above and beyond the $200k mark have put in a huge amount of effort to get to that position. They're clearly passionate about something--either programming or, well, just money. Also, for what it's worth, "lifestyle businesses" are often tied directly to having lower hours.
  - collyw 13y ago
    Programming is unusual that some people may have incredible mathematical talent which will allow some to be a LOT better than other without much effort (in specific areas). I am not in that category. Above average, keen to learn and a decent bit of background. Not earning anywhere near 200k+, but I am living inn Barcelona which is pretty cool. Don't do more than 40hours per week usually either.