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Ugh. "I'm going to fixate on this one word, get completely pedantic about the semantics of the word and use it as the basis of my argument." If I were this guy

Ugh. "I'm going to fixate on this one word, get completely pedantic about the semantics of the word and use it as the basis of my argument." If I were this guy and I was looking for a job, I'd be less worried about not having enough passion. I'd be sweating the fact that I can't parse the meaning of a word based on the context it's used in. That's a pretty valuable skill to have as a programmer. I'd be worried about being overly pedantic about things - most people don't want to work with a pedant who can't see beyond strict definitions.

mjhoy 13y ago
> I'd be sweating the fact that I can't parse the meaning of a word based on the context it's used in. I would say that's _exactly_ what he's doing. He's considering what companies might actually mean by throwing the word "passionate" into job postings.
- vinkelhake 13y ago
  At this point? I would say the word means practically nothing in job postings.
d23 13y ago
I think he has a point though. There's nothing more of a turnoff to me than seeing "ninja" or "rockstar" in a job listing, and this seems to hit on a similar point. Why does this industry seem to expect miracle workers who know 30,000 frameworks and languages, rather than solid folks who enjoy their jobs and are good at them?
polymatter 13y ago
'passionate' in this context means 'able to get to work on time is a reasonably presentable state'. It means nothing more.
- rexreed 13y ago
  Maybe a bit more: it probably also means interested in the work one is doing and find some enjoyment from doing it.
  - collyw 13y ago
    That depends. "Passionate about programming" I could probably fit myself into at a stretch. Passionate about fixing dub users excel errors (depsite telling them a million times we shouldn't be using Excel for importing data), definetely not. My job is a mix of both.
tarr11 13y ago
There's a bit of linkbait to the title, and perhaps that is what you are reacting to. But calling him a "pedant" is not accurate or fair.
soup10 13y ago
shrug, as i've grown older i've learned that language matters. And i've seen enough of these so called naive "passionate programmers" who get exploited by management into working much longer and harder than they are getting paid for(and not taking vacation time), to think that he has a point. The language we use is part of establishing a culture that can have a meaningful effect. Drilling into employees that a good programmer is passionate about his job breaks down work/non-work boundaries over time. Another similar example of this is startup founders using the pressure they are under and fear of company failure to "inspire" the salaried+options employees to work harder. When in reality most salaried employees at startups have much less at stake than the founders and can usually find another job if things go south.
- danielweber 13y ago
  I get the desire to not want clock-punchers. But I've seen all variety of teams bust their collective ass to get a product working as good as it could. (And then grind to a stop in 5 minutes when management sends an email saying they have to work overtime.) This was without trying to only hire people willing to dump in massive overtime. I don't think getting developers to bust their ass is something you can recruit. I think it's something you can cultivate by making it clear that the developers' product is valued.
coldtea 13y ago
How things are phrased gives important cues. Language is rarely innocent, especially when it becomes fashion and everybody uses the same words. Plus, it's hardly "that one word". The terminology and job description copy for startups and modern companies in general revolve around lots of similar words and notions (from "passionate" to "ninja") and the pressure he describes is very much a part of corporate culture. Heck, it's an industry where "addicted to caffeine" is taken as a good thing.

mjhoy 13y ago

> I'd be sweating the fact that I can't parse the meaning of a word based on the context it's used in. I would say that's _exactly_ what he's doing. He's considering what companies might actually mean by throwing the word "passionate" into job postings.

vinkelhake 13y ago
At this point? I would say the word means practically nothing in job postings.

d23 13y ago

I think he has a point though. There's nothing more of a turnoff to me than seeing "ninja" or "rockstar" in a job listing, and this seems to hit on a similar point. Why does this industry seem to expect miracle workers who know 30,000 frameworks and languages, rather than solid folks who enjoy their jobs and are good at them?

polymatter 13y ago

'passionate' in this context means 'able to get to work on time is a reasonably presentable state'. It means nothing more.

rexreed 13y ago
Maybe a bit more: it probably also means interested in the work one is doing and find some enjoyment from doing it.
- collyw 13y ago
  That depends. "Passionate about programming" I could probably fit myself into at a stretch. Passionate about fixing dub users excel errors (depsite telling them a million times we shouldn't be using Excel for importing data), definetely not. My job is a mix of both.

tarr11 13y ago

There's a bit of linkbait to the title, and perhaps that is what you are reacting to. But calling him a "pedant" is not accurate or fair.

soup10 13y ago

shrug, as i've grown older i've learned that language matters. And i've seen enough of these so called naive "passionate programmers" who get exploited by management into working much longer and harder than they are getting paid for(and not taking vacation time), to think that he has a point. The language we use is part of establishing a culture that can have a meaningful effect. Drilling into employees that a good programmer is passionate about his job breaks down work/non-work boundaries over time. Another similar example of this is startup founders using the pressure they are under and fear of company failure to "inspire" the salaried+options employees to work harder. When in reality most salaried employees at startups have much less at stake than the founders and can usually find another job if things go south.

danielweber 13y ago
I get the desire to not want clock-punchers. But I've seen all variety of teams bust their collective ass to get a product working as good as it could. (And then grind to a stop in 5 minutes when management sends an email saying they have to work overtime.) This was without trying to only hire people willing to dump in massive overtime. I don't think getting developers to bust their ass is something you can recruit. I think it's something you can cultivate by making it clear that the developers' product is valued.

coldtea 13y ago

How things are phrased gives important cues. Language is rarely innocent, especially when it becomes fashion and everybody uses the same words. Plus, it's hardly "that one word". The terminology and job description copy for startups and modern companies in general revolve around lots of similar words and notions (from "passionate" to "ninja") and the pressure he describes is very much a part of corporate culture. Heck, it's an industry where "addicted to caffeine" is taken as a good thing.