4 ms·

Capitalism vs. Democracy

24 points by ChristianMarks 13y ago

kungfooguru 13y ago
"[D]efies left and right orthodoxy by arguing that worsening inequality is an inevitable outcome of free market capitalism." Huh? How does that defy left orthodoxy? Edsall might want to pick up some Leftist works... Maybe something from that little known author Karl Marx.
- dragonwriter 13y ago
  You probably won't find any references to "free market capitalism" in Marx, since the "free market" marketing label was only added by supporters of capitalism to distract from the socialist critique in which the system organized and managed to serve the interest of capitalist called "capitalism" was named. Treating "free market capitalism" as if it is a meaningful term defies left orthodoxy, arguing that it is something other than ideal defies right orthodoxy.
ataggart 13y ago
If this[1] is what "increasing inequality" looks like, I welcome it. [1] http://annualletter.gatesfoundation.org/~/media/Annual%20Letter%202014/Myth%201/Myth1Info1_Curves_Final_EN_0122.jpg http://annualletter.gatesfoundation.org/~/media/Annual%20Let...
- lordCarbonFiber 13y ago
  That particular graph has several issues. The first of which is the lack of scale. It's set up so the tail ends nicely around $100 dollars a day when in reality it should extend over 2 orders magnitude to the right. When talking about inequality, if you can say "most of humanity" exists in this hump orders of magnitude away from a select few that represents a problem.
lettergram 13y ago
Can tell he came from France... You can't have a democracy without capitalism, if you remove capitalism you instead have to put in place a committee, if someone in the committee eventually makes a grab for power (at some point this will happen), then you have a dictatorship... It's happened tons of times throughout history, no matter what people want power. If a society values money the most (as in a capitalist society) one will strive to make money and in turn products. If the society values position, then one will strive to gain status, and so on with military, strength, etc. The point being, regardless of work, it's fairly clear though a remedial understanding of history (Rome, Russia, North Korea, Greece), capitalism doesn't destroy a society nor does it create a gap. The gap is always there, it simply changes form. If for example the average worker has a home, food, water, essentially a stable life they will still complain because they want MORE. This will always happen, I know very few people who don't want more. I suspect that this is the root of it, the root of all statements such as "Capitalism vs. Democracy.." It's pathetic, it's as if these authors sole goal is to destroy democracy and instantiate communism.. We've seen that in the past and it doesn't close the gap between rich and poor it makes it worse. For when you remove the hope that work can make you rich, you put in place instead a status (or military, strength, etc.) based market, where the "wealthiest" in the society are those with that instead of currency. Unfortunately, that change in efforts towards status, or what have you, forces greater despair. As time goes on the society eventually will lose all hope and collapse... /end rand http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicago_school_of_economics http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicago_school_of_economics http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Austrian_School http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Austrian_School
- riggins 13y ago
  so what's France? Is France capitalist or socialist?
  - withouted 13y ago
    its capitalist with a socialist face
- nox_ 13y ago
  > Can tell he came from France... And you certainly sound like the stereotypical ignorant North American.
coldcode 13y ago
Every time I read something about economists arguing I remember the old joke "The definition of "waste": a busload of economists plunging over a precipice with three of the seats unoccupied."
e40 13y ago
...defies left and right orthodoxy by arguing that worsening inequality is an inevitable outcome of free market capitalism. Let's fix that: ...defies left and right orthodoxy by arguing that worsening inequality is an inevitable outcome of UNRESTRAINED free market capitalism. The greed that is pure free market capitalism needs some bounds, else the inequality gets out of whack like it is right now.

"[D]efies left and right orthodoxy by arguing that worsening inequality is an inevitable outcome of free market capitalism." Huh? How does that defy left orthodoxy? Edsall might want to pick up some Leftist works... Maybe something from that little known author Karl Marx.

dragonwriter 13y ago
You probably won't find any references to "free market capitalism" in Marx, since the "free market" marketing label was only added by supporters of capitalism to distract from the socialist critique in which the system organized and managed to serve the interest of capitalist called "capitalism" was named. Treating "free market capitalism" as if it is a meaningful term defies left orthodoxy, arguing that it is something other than ideal defies right orthodoxy.

ataggart 13y ago

If this[1] is what "increasing inequality" looks like, I welcome it. [1] http://annualletter.gatesfoundation.org/~/media/Annual%20Letter%202014/Myth%201/Myth1Info1_Curves_Final_EN_0122.jpg http://annualletter.gatesfoundation.org/~/media/Annual%20Let...

lordCarbonFiber 13y ago
That particular graph has several issues. The first of which is the lack of scale. It's set up so the tail ends nicely around $100 dollars a day when in reality it should extend over 2 orders magnitude to the right. When talking about inequality, if you can say "most of humanity" exists in this hump orders of magnitude away from a select few that represents a problem.

lettergram 13y ago

Can tell he came from France... You can't have a democracy without capitalism, if you remove capitalism you instead have to put in place a committee, if someone in the committee eventually makes a grab for power (at some point this will happen), then you have a dictatorship... It's happened tons of times throughout history, no matter what people want power. If a society values money the most (as in a capitalist society) one will strive to make money and in turn products. If the society values position, then one will strive to gain status, and so on with military, strength, etc. The point being, regardless of work, it's fairly clear though a remedial understanding of history (Rome, Russia, North Korea, Greece), capitalism doesn't destroy a society nor does it create a gap. The gap is always there, it simply changes form. If for example the average worker has a home, food, water, essentially a stable life they will still complain because they want MORE. This will always happen, I know very few people who don't want more. I suspect that this is the root of it, the root of all statements such as "Capitalism vs. Democracy.." It's pathetic, it's as if these authors sole goal is to destroy democracy and instantiate communism.. We've seen that in the past and it doesn't close the gap between rich and poor it makes it worse. For when you remove the hope that work can make you rich, you put in place instead a status (or military, strength, etc.) based market, where the "wealthiest" in the society are those with that instead of currency. Unfortunately, that change in efforts towards status, or what have you, forces greater despair. As time goes on the society eventually will lose all hope and collapse... /end rand http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicago_school_of_economics http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicago_school_of_economics http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Austrian_School http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Austrian_School

riggins 13y ago
so what's France? Is France capitalist or socialist?
- withouted 13y ago
  its capitalist with a socialist face
nox_ 13y ago
> Can tell he came from France... And you certainly sound like the stereotypical ignorant North American.

coldcode 13y ago

Every time I read something about economists arguing I remember the old joke "The definition of "waste": a busload of economists plunging over a precipice with three of the seats unoccupied."

e40 13y ago

...defies left and right orthodoxy by arguing that worsening inequality is an inevitable outcome of free market capitalism. Let's fix that: ...defies left and right orthodoxy by arguing that worsening inequality is an inevitable outcome of UNRESTRAINED free market capitalism. The greed that is pure free market capitalism needs some bounds, else the inequality gets out of whack like it is right now.