7 ms·

The upside to being let go by Nokia

78 points by sambeau 13y ago

dijit 13y ago
Good PR for Nokia, it was a lovely company but I don't see how they are still relevant in this time of Android and iOS. The Windows phone, while not terrible, is completely eclipsed by the forerunners which have cornered the smartphone and tablet markets, using experience to guide them. Windows mobile seems to still operate under the illusion that they can dictate how you use your phone, which would work, if they'd been as ubiquitous as iOS has become.
- Rezo 13y ago
  With the sale of the phone business to MS, Nokia is pivoting to mapping and connected cars: http://conversations.nokia.com/2012/09/28/top-auto-brands-turn-to-nokia-for-location-content/ http://conversations.nokia.com/2012/09/28/top-auto-brands-tu... Nokia bought Navteq for ~$8 billion a few years back. They're the only source for mapping data that is comparable to Google.
  - hexagonc 13y ago
    A recruiter from Nokia contacted me about a Android developer job. I'm not sure if this was the Microsoft Nokia or the other Nokia.
probablyfiction 13y ago
It's very difficult to imagine an American company doing this, especially in the face of declining revenue. American corporations have a ways to go when it comes to treating employees like human beings rather than resources.
- pjmlp 13y ago
  As European, I have been always put off by the work conditions there.
  - zura 13y ago
    On the other hand, 6 figures salary is as well a rarity in Euros (in EUR currency countries) for engineers. EDIT: I should had put more emphasis on "rarity" - lets say almost unimaginable. At least, I have an impression that it is much more common in USA.
    - hatred 13y ago
      Well a quick multiplier of 1.35 means $135k in USD yearly for a 6 figure salary. Well that's a rarity even for software developers here in US unless you are pretty darn good. BTW, how much is the average salary paid by american companies in Europe ?
      - OhHeyItsE 13y ago
        I would say that's middle-of-the road for an experienced engineer in NYC. Location is everything, I suppose.
    - gordaco 13y ago
      Speaking as another European who has always been put off by the usual American conditions, money is not a very big concern to me beyond my (admittedly quite frugal) standard of living. Time is a far, far, far more important resource, and working in the USA seems to include insane hours and constant overtime and few vacations. Also, I think you don't need that much money in Europe, thanks to things like socialized healthcare.
      - sudomal 13y ago
        Agreed. As you get older too, you start to appreciate how much time is burned by working. It's good to work, just it shouldn't dominate your waking life.
      - Pxtl 13y ago
        Your forgot to include nightmarish commutes in your list of North American time-vampires.
- graving 13y ago
  I agree, the comparable layoffs in the US would be the thousands of Motorola layoffs after the Google takeover. Haven't really come across anything coming out of them like in the story.
- jbuzbee 13y ago
  There are multiple ways to look at this. In one respect, you could say that this generous "easing redundant employes out the door" policy hurts the company and the employees still in place as it diverts money that could be spent keeping the company in business by refining existing products and developing new ones. If the company goes under, everybody is hurt. And if you're not careful, your employees that can help the company the most may try to get laid off in order to fund their side projects. On the other-hand, morale must be terrible at places like Nokia and Blackberry right now. Programs like this help the company as it creates loyalty and helps keep good employees in place as they know that there will be assistance if they do get laid off. But once again, it could create or hasten a death-spiral. Employees can see that these layoff programs are expensive so they may bail out to get theirs before the money runs out. Tough times. Touch choices.
  - michaelt 13y ago
    Well, one of the costs of hiring and having employees is you have to ringfence some money for redundancy payments. This is a completely predictable expense - a company shouldn't be put out of business by paying redundancy money any more than they should go out of business when the electricity bill comes in or the printer needs a new toner cartridge.
  - gaius 13y ago
    Another way to look at it is seeding the ecosystem to create new markets over the long term. Nokia knows about pivoting. Before they made phones, they made rubber boots!
- bananacurve 13y ago
  They lost 40% of their revenue in mobile phones in Q2 2013. It is amazing they retained any composure at all after being so thoroughly crushed.
- michaelochurch 13y ago
  The old Silicon Valley was this way. Hewlett-Packard did a 10% across-the-board pay cut and gave non-executive employees a day off every 2 weeks. If a startup had to cut staff, the people were let go with great references and introduced to investors so they could try their own startups. Even when people had to be let go, management would make sure it helped their careers in the long run... because Silicon Valley was still a world in which the little guy mattered. The new Valley isn't that way, and that's actually a bit dangerous. I know someone who was let go from a startup, not given investor contact (or even a severance package) and he pretty much destroyed the place.
  - at-fates-hands 13y ago
    I can confirm this. I had several family members work at Intel in the early 80's. I remember the stories about how Intel was known to really take care of their employees, even after they left the company.
arocks 13y ago
While I am not sure how well Nokia ran its technology strategy, I completely respect their views on their employees and the society. I think they were one of the earliest companies to think of how to recycle electronic waste created by disused mobile phones. Also, this article makes me think of the IP stockpile within a company in general. While most companies tries to cash in from their research work, what Nokia has done is to enable the creation of hundreds of startups. I hope more companies emulate such models to help advance the state of the art rather than gather dust in vaults.
ef47d35620c1 13y ago
I've seen corporations in the U.S. change the locks on doors and not tell employees. The next morning, they'd have security officers escort workers back to their former offices so they could get personal pictures and things. Employees were 'watched' by security to ensure they didn't take anything or turn on a computer. America is a different place. It can be very hostile here.
- jbuzbee 13y ago
  Terminating an employee can be tough on both sides. I was involved in a situation where we should have had security escort the terminated employee back to his office to get his belongings. This employee was basically let go after multiple warnings about not showing up for work and not calling in. When he was told, he returned to his office and proceeded to smash up some equipment. Lesson learned. I obviously wouldn't want him back in the building and wish security would have been at his office. Tense situation.
  - codegeek 13y ago
    "....proceeded to smash up some equipment." "..I obviously wouldn't want him back in the building" I am sure he won't be back (at least for a while) because he will most likely be in prison for sometime. He was an outlier. For the most part though, people are reasonable and just want to be treated with decency when getting laid-off/fired.
    - jbuzbee 13y ago
      Yes, he was an outlier. Most people will not behave this way and will act reasonably. But of course, the problem is determining which people will fly off the handle in stressful situations. I never would have guessed that this guy would turn violent. And if he would have struck and injured someone else things could have been much worse. The company would have likely been held responsible for not having security around. So most companies go the "better safe than sorry" route during termination.
  - vidarh 13y ago
mueslix 13y ago
The upside to being let go by Nokia is not having to work for Nokia any longer.
sudomal 13y ago
One benefit of this is Nokia could potentially acquire the successful ventures - once Microsoft is out of the picture and they're allowed to return to the smartphone business.
jmspring 13y ago
Nokia was on the decline even as early as 2005. The iPhone just exacerbated things. The enterprise division, primarily based in the US was not treated as well as the programs in this article. Many in the enterprise division based in Finland were folded into other groups, which was good. Also the reorganization under Elop wasn't all warm and fuzzy either, from what friends in Finland told me. Recall the protest over the Windows Phone decision. I liked Nokia, left on my own, but this warm fuzzy, not always the case. The fact that many started their own companies, etc, is a great thing to learn though.
jotm 13y ago
I like the Lumias, I would buy one with Android.
edvaz 13y ago
to read this article right after reading http://i.imgur.com/huUv09m.png http://i.imgur.com/huUv09m.png (the Zynga today's articles on HN) was intriguing.
sirkneeland 13y ago
Nokia has been a special place to work. I have loved working here and learned so much as the company invested so much in me and in others. But the market doesn't reward companies for doing the right thing for its employees. It rewards companies for making products that people wanted to buy. And we failed to do that (mainly because we made catastrophically wrong choices in which operating systems to get behind). It is a shame. As someone staying behind in what is now "New Nokia" I can only hope the company remains a special place to work. EDIT: by "we" I mean "our leadership". I don't think many of the Nokia rank-and-file would have supported the 2011 decision to do Windows Phone and only Windows Phone (if anyone would have asked them).
sirkneeland 13y ago
A great difference between Nokia and, say, Zynga: When Nokia killed MeeGo, they let Jolla take the technology and make a new company out of it when they could have easily thwarted it with any number of legal/IP/HR chokeholds. But Nokia looked the other way and let Jolla continue. When Zynga killed OMGpop (of "Draw Something" fame), the original people wanted to keep OMGpop going, and even offered to buy it back from Zynga. Zynga refused and insisted OMGpop's remains be destroyed. Good Guy Nokia
- AceJohnny2 13y ago
  See also Valve, Jeri Ellsworth and Rick Johnson, who were let go but allowed to take the tech they were working on to start CastAR: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/technicalillusions/castar-the-most-versatile-ar-and-vr-system https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/technicalillusions/cast... It's a pity that these situations are notable and not the default.
w1ntermute 13y ago
Things could have been so different for Nokia if it had gone with Android instead of WP. There would also be a lot better designed Android phones.
hexagonc 13y ago
One question I have for European companies with branches in America: do the US arm of these companies have similarly good benefits for their US employees or do they revert to the norm for American companies?

78 points by sambeau 13y ago

dijit 13y ago

Good PR for Nokia, it was a lovely company but I don't see how they are still relevant in this time of Android and iOS. The Windows phone, while not terrible, is completely eclipsed by the forerunners which have cornered the smartphone and tablet markets, using experience to guide them. Windows mobile seems to still operate under the illusion that they can dictate how you use your phone, which would work, if they'd been as ubiquitous as iOS has become.

Rezo 13y ago
With the sale of the phone business to MS, Nokia is pivoting to mapping and connected cars: http://conversations.nokia.com/2012/09/28/top-auto-brands-turn-to-nokia-for-location-content/ http://conversations.nokia.com/2012/09/28/top-auto-brands-tu... Nokia bought Navteq for ~$8 billion a few years back. They're the only source for mapping data that is comparable to Google.
- hexagonc 13y ago
  A recruiter from Nokia contacted me about a Android developer job. I'm not sure if this was the Microsoft Nokia or the other Nokia.

probablyfiction 13y ago

It's very difficult to imagine an American company doing this, especially in the face of declining revenue. American corporations have a ways to go when it comes to treating employees like human beings rather than resources.

pjmlp 13y ago
As European, I have been always put off by the work conditions there.
- zura 13y ago
  On the other hand, 6 figures salary is as well a rarity in Euros (in EUR currency countries) for engineers. EDIT: I should had put more emphasis on "rarity" - lets say almost unimaginable. At least, I have an impression that it is much more common in USA.
  - hatred 13y ago
    Well a quick multiplier of 1.35 means $135k in USD yearly for a 6 figure salary. Well that's a rarity even for software developers here in US unless you are pretty darn good. BTW, how much is the average salary paid by american companies in Europe ?
    - OhHeyItsE 13y ago
      I would say that's middle-of-the road for an experienced engineer in NYC. Location is everything, I suppose.
  - gordaco 13y ago
    Speaking as another European who has always been put off by the usual American conditions, money is not a very big concern to me beyond my (admittedly quite frugal) standard of living. Time is a far, far, far more important resource, and working in the USA seems to include insane hours and constant overtime and few vacations. Also, I think you don't need that much money in Europe, thanks to things like socialized healthcare.
    - sudomal 13y ago
      Agreed. As you get older too, you start to appreciate how much time is burned by working. It's good to work, just it shouldn't dominate your waking life.
    - Pxtl 13y ago
      Your forgot to include nightmarish commutes in your list of North American time-vampires.
graving 13y ago
I agree, the comparable layoffs in the US would be the thousands of Motorola layoffs after the Google takeover. Haven't really come across anything coming out of them like in the story.
jbuzbee 13y ago
There are multiple ways to look at this. In one respect, you could say that this generous "easing redundant employes out the door" policy hurts the company and the employees still in place as it diverts money that could be spent keeping the company in business by refining existing products and developing new ones. If the company goes under, everybody is hurt. And if you're not careful, your employees that can help the company the most may try to get laid off in order to fund their side projects. On the other-hand, morale must be terrible at places like Nokia and Blackberry right now. Programs like this help the company as it creates loyalty and helps keep good employees in place as they know that there will be assistance if they do get laid off. But once again, it could create or hasten a death-spiral. Employees can see that these layoff programs are expensive so they may bail out to get theirs before the money runs out. Tough times. Touch choices.
- michaelt 13y ago
  Well, one of the costs of hiring and having employees is you have to ringfence some money for redundancy payments. This is a completely predictable expense - a company shouldn't be put out of business by paying redundancy money any more than they should go out of business when the electricity bill comes in or the printer needs a new toner cartridge.
- gaius 13y ago
  Another way to look at it is seeding the ecosystem to create new markets over the long term. Nokia knows about pivoting. Before they made phones, they made rubber boots!
bananacurve 13y ago
They lost 40% of their revenue in mobile phones in Q2 2013. It is amazing they retained any composure at all after being so thoroughly crushed.
michaelochurch 13y ago
The old Silicon Valley was this way. Hewlett-Packard did a 10% across-the-board pay cut and gave non-executive employees a day off every 2 weeks. If a startup had to cut staff, the people were let go with great references and introduced to investors so they could try their own startups. Even when people had to be let go, management would make sure it helped their careers in the long run... because Silicon Valley was still a world in which the little guy mattered. The new Valley isn't that way, and that's actually a bit dangerous. I know someone who was let go from a startup, not given investor contact (or even a severance package) and he pretty much destroyed the place.
- at-fates-hands 13y ago
  I can confirm this. I had several family members work at Intel in the early 80's. I remember the stories about how Intel was known to really take care of their employees, even after they left the company.

arocks 13y ago

While I am not sure how well Nokia ran its technology strategy, I completely respect their views on their employees and the society. I think they were one of the earliest companies to think of how to recycle electronic waste created by disused mobile phones. Also, this article makes me think of the IP stockpile within a company in general. While most companies tries to cash in from their research work, what Nokia has done is to enable the creation of hundreds of startups. I hope more companies emulate such models to help advance the state of the art rather than gather dust in vaults.

ef47d35620c1 13y ago

I've seen corporations in the U.S. change the locks on doors and not tell employees. The next morning, they'd have security officers escort workers back to their former offices so they could get personal pictures and things. Employees were 'watched' by security to ensure they didn't take anything or turn on a computer. America is a different place. It can be very hostile here.

jbuzbee 13y ago
Terminating an employee can be tough on both sides. I was involved in a situation where we should have had security escort the terminated employee back to his office to get his belongings. This employee was basically let go after multiple warnings about not showing up for work and not calling in. When he was told, he returned to his office and proceeded to smash up some equipment. Lesson learned. I obviously wouldn't want him back in the building and wish security would have been at his office. Tense situation.
- codegeek 13y ago
  "....proceeded to smash up some equipment." "..I obviously wouldn't want him back in the building" I am sure he won't be back (at least for a while) because he will most likely be in prison for sometime. He was an outlier. For the most part though, people are reasonable and just want to be treated with decency when getting laid-off/fired.
  - jbuzbee 13y ago
    Yes, he was an outlier. Most people will not behave this way and will act reasonably. But of course, the problem is determining which people will fly off the handle in stressful situations. I never would have guessed that this guy would turn violent. And if he would have struck and injured someone else things could have been much worse. The company would have likely been held responsible for not having security around. So most companies go the "better safe than sorry" route during termination.
- vidarh 13y ago

mueslix 13y ago

The upside to being let go by Nokia is not having to work for Nokia any longer.

sudomal 13y ago

One benefit of this is Nokia could potentially acquire the successful ventures - once Microsoft is out of the picture and they're allowed to return to the smartphone business.

jmspring 13y ago

Nokia was on the decline even as early as 2005. The iPhone just exacerbated things. The enterprise division, primarily based in the US was not treated as well as the programs in this article. Many in the enterprise division based in Finland were folded into other groups, which was good. Also the reorganization under Elop wasn't all warm and fuzzy either, from what friends in Finland told me. Recall the protest over the Windows Phone decision. I liked Nokia, left on my own, but this warm fuzzy, not always the case. The fact that many started their own companies, etc, is a great thing to learn though.

jotm 13y ago

I like the Lumias, I would buy one with Android.

edvaz 13y ago

to read this article right after reading http://i.imgur.com/huUv09m.png http://i.imgur.com/huUv09m.png (the Zynga today's articles on HN) was intriguing.

sirkneeland 13y ago

Nokia has been a special place to work. I have loved working here and learned so much as the company invested so much in me and in others. But the market doesn't reward companies for doing the right thing for its employees. It rewards companies for making products that people wanted to buy. And we failed to do that (mainly because we made catastrophically wrong choices in which operating systems to get behind). It is a shame. As someone staying behind in what is now "New Nokia" I can only hope the company remains a special place to work. EDIT: by "we" I mean "our leadership". I don't think many of the Nokia rank-and-file would have supported the 2011 decision to do Windows Phone and only Windows Phone (if anyone would have asked them).

sirkneeland 13y ago

A great difference between Nokia and, say, Zynga: When Nokia killed MeeGo, they let Jolla take the technology and make a new company out of it when they could have easily thwarted it with any number of legal/IP/HR chokeholds. But Nokia looked the other way and let Jolla continue. When Zynga killed OMGpop (of "Draw Something" fame), the original people wanted to keep OMGpop going, and even offered to buy it back from Zynga. Zynga refused and insisted OMGpop's remains be destroyed. Good Guy Nokia

AceJohnny2 13y ago
See also Valve, Jeri Ellsworth and Rick Johnson, who were let go but allowed to take the tech they were working on to start CastAR: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/technicalillusions/castar-the-most-versatile-ar-and-vr-system https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/technicalillusions/cast... It's a pity that these situations are notable and not the default.

w1ntermute 13y ago

Things could have been so different for Nokia if it had gone with Android instead of WP. There would also be a lot better designed Android phones.

hexagonc 13y ago

One question I have for European companies with branches in America: do the US arm of these companies have similarly good benefits for their US employees or do they revert to the norm for American companies?