4 ms·

How about a OS X version that looks and acts like an OS X app?

by Oompa 17y ago

rbanffy 17y ago
Come on... It's not so bad.
- Oompa 17y ago
  It's not, but I think the efforts should be focused on making the OS X version feel like an OS X version, rather than making the Windows version, which already feels at home, better.
  - sayrer 17y ago
    hi. disclosure: I work for Mozilla. What do you dislike about it?
    - Zev 17y ago
      For starters, https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=472271 https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=472271 To continue, how FF never looks like its in the background (the tab bar color never changes, for example) — actually, scratch that, the app itself doesn't look or act like it belongs, period. But, thats what you get for using XUL instead of Cocoa. Even more, how it takes 2-3x longer than Safari to launch and feels sluggish to use (because it is, compared to Safari, which I can use without any effort on my part), how it continues to eat up memory, despite having the problem (apparently) fixed on windows and linux, etc. Take a look through the most duped bugs for FF/Mac. Then fix them, instead of ignoring them for years. Oh, and the "you are using free software" thing on first launch (if thats still there) and the hilariously inaccurate chart comparing FF to Safari when downloading — it feels incredibly condescending to read.
      - rbanffy 17y ago
        I really can't understand the sense of entitlement people feel towards free software other people write. If you don't like something, report it. If the maintainer decides something else is more important, you have three options: 1- you live with it 2- you stop using said software 3- you fix it
        tolmasky 17y ago
        Firefox is not some 17 year old's side project. It is a product, and a product that makes a lot of money from its customers btw, and the goal of any product is to satisfy users (as a means to and end to generate additional profit). I can guarantee you that Mozilla wants to make people happy, not to tell them to "hit the road" if they don't fix the bugs themselves. You can't on the one hand evangelize like crazy and get people to switch over to your product and then on the other tell them tough luck when they don't get what they want.
        rbanffy 17y ago
        "a product that makes a lot of money from its customers" They make a lot of money from Google, not from you or me. Their job is to prevent Internet Explorer from gaining too much market share and to provide a usable browser on those platforms that wouldn't otherwise, have one. Also, they work on limited resources. They have to prioritize. They are also human. You can get a whole lot more done if you just ask nicely. They can't send their users packing, but I understand if they don't prioritize a fix that would be noticed by about half a dozen users (the intersection of the "Mac users" with "users who change default keyboard shortcuts") however verbal and vitriolic they are.
        tolmasky 17y ago
        Actually, they do make their money from us. If no one used FireFox then Google wouldn't continue sending them checks because the money comes from you and me doing Google searches. Saying they don't make money from us is like saying that ad supported sites don't make money from us, they do. More Firefox users = more money for Mozilla. It turns out every single company works on limited resources, is human, and has to prioritize: these are not unique shortcomings of open source software. No one is asking they do exactly what we say, in fact if you read the post that you responded to, it was not mean spirited in any way and simply listed a number of bugs upon a Mozilla workers' request, so I don't really understand the "fix it yourself" response. Also, the idea that their job is to provide a usable browser for platforms that wouldn't otherwise have one is somewhat silly and particularly ironic in the context of a conversation about not providing a good enough experience for "half a dozen users". Windows is arguably the platform least lacking in browsers, and Mozilla has clearly demonstrated through their actions that their primary concern is Windows market share, and this is fine and a good strategy in my opinion. All I'm saying is to not paint them as white knights for the minority in one sentence and then complain about vocal minorities in another.
      - sayrer 17y ago
        are you using Firefox 3 or 3.5? My tab bar sure changes color when the app is in the background. I'm using OS X 10.5.7.
        Zev 17y ago
        Whoops, wrong version. You're right, it was FF3 that didn't change the color at all. Sorry about that mixup. In FF 3.5, it just makes the background tab bar color the same color as the foreground Cocoa titlebar color. So it's still irritating to see what's in the foreground and what isn't; especially when the window is partially covered up.
      - GeneralMaximus 17y ago
        Are you using 3.5? On my Mac, both FF and Safari take exactly the same time to launch. This is with many addons (7 or 8 at the last count). Also, FF is very snappy. In fact, it works better with large pages having a bunch of media content than Safari. Except for a few very small glitches, FF 3.5 is as native as you could want it. I just switched back to FF from Opera. I chose Opera over FF for my Mac because it looked native and was snappier than the OS X version of FF. Now Opera seems to be going in the opposite direction (choosing a horribly non-native skin, adding everything and the kitchensink to the browser, becoming painfully unresponsive with every new version).
    - zimbabwe 17y ago
      Can you implement a method of scrolling that actually works with a multitouch pad? That is, 2d scrolling that's smooth and lets me scroll pixel-by-pixel rather than in chunks? There is NOTHING worse than a web browser that can't scroll correctly. It makes the Internet feel fucked-up.
      - rbanffy 17y ago
        "There is NOTHING worse than a web browser that can't scroll correctly." I seriously doubt your statement. I can easily think a lot of things far worse than a browser that doesn't behave the way you expect.
        zimbabwe 17y ago
        I'm sorry for using hyperbole on the Internet. I'll never ever ever do it again.
kentosi 17y ago
ALMOST acts like an OS X app. There are still outstanding issues regarding the widgets. Take for instance the <select> element, which still looks freakishly non-native when you click on it: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=402625 https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=402625
- deleted 17y ago
  [deleted]

How about a OS X version that looks and acts like an OS X app?

by Oompa 17y ago

How about a OS X version that looks and acts like an OS X app?

rbanffy 17y ago

Come on... It's not so bad.

Oompa 17y ago
It's not, but I think the efforts should be focused on making the OS X version feel like an OS X version, rather than making the Windows version, which already feels at home, better.
- sayrer 17y ago
  hi. disclosure: I work for Mozilla. What do you dislike about it?
  - Zev 17y ago
    For starters, https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=472271 https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=472271 To continue, how FF never looks like its in the background (the tab bar color never changes, for example) — actually, scratch that, the app itself doesn't look or act like it belongs, period. But, thats what you get for using XUL instead of Cocoa. Even more, how it takes 2-3x longer than Safari to launch and feels sluggish to use (because it is, compared to Safari, which I can use without any effort on my part), how it continues to eat up memory, despite having the problem (apparently) fixed on windows and linux, etc. Take a look through the most duped bugs for FF/Mac. Then fix them, instead of ignoring them for years. Oh, and the "you are using free software" thing on first launch (if thats still there) and the hilariously inaccurate chart comparing FF to Safari when downloading — it feels incredibly condescending to read.
    - rbanffy 17y ago
      I really can't understand the sense of entitlement people feel towards free software other people write. If you don't like something, report it. If the maintainer decides something else is more important, you have three options: 1- you live with it 2- you stop using said software 3- you fix it
      - tolmasky 17y ago
        Firefox is not some 17 year old's side project. It is a product, and a product that makes a lot of money from its customers btw, and the goal of any product is to satisfy users (as a means to and end to generate additional profit). I can guarantee you that Mozilla wants to make people happy, not to tell them to "hit the road" if they don't fix the bugs themselves. You can't on the one hand evangelize like crazy and get people to switch over to your product and then on the other tell them tough luck when they don't get what they want.
        rbanffy 17y ago
        "a product that makes a lot of money from its customers" They make a lot of money from Google, not from you or me. Their job is to prevent Internet Explorer from gaining too much market share and to provide a usable browser on those platforms that wouldn't otherwise, have one. Also, they work on limited resources. They have to prioritize. They are also human. You can get a whole lot more done if you just ask nicely. They can't send their users packing, but I understand if they don't prioritize a fix that would be noticed by about half a dozen users (the intersection of the "Mac users" with "users who change default keyboard shortcuts") however verbal and vitriolic they are.
        tolmasky 17y ago
        Actually, they do make their money from us. If no one used FireFox then Google wouldn't continue sending them checks because the money comes from you and me doing Google searches. Saying they don't make money from us is like saying that ad supported sites don't make money from us, they do. More Firefox users = more money for Mozilla. It turns out every single company works on limited resources, is human, and has to prioritize: these are not unique shortcomings of open source software. No one is asking they do exactly what we say, in fact if you read the post that you responded to, it was not mean spirited in any way and simply listed a number of bugs upon a Mozilla workers' request, so I don't really understand the "fix it yourself" response. Also, the idea that their job is to provide a usable browser for platforms that wouldn't otherwise have one is somewhat silly and particularly ironic in the context of a conversation about not providing a good enough experience for "half a dozen users". Windows is arguably the platform least lacking in browsers, and Mozilla has clearly demonstrated through their actions that their primary concern is Windows market share, and this is fine and a good strategy in my opinion. All I'm saying is to not paint them as white knights for the minority in one sentence and then complain about vocal minorities in another.
    - sayrer 17y ago
      are you using Firefox 3 or 3.5? My tab bar sure changes color when the app is in the background. I'm using OS X 10.5.7.
      - Zev 17y ago
        Whoops, wrong version. You're right, it was FF3 that didn't change the color at all. Sorry about that mixup. In FF 3.5, it just makes the background tab bar color the same color as the foreground Cocoa titlebar color. So it's still irritating to see what's in the foreground and what isn't; especially when the window is partially covered up.
    - GeneralMaximus 17y ago
      Are you using 3.5? On my Mac, both FF and Safari take exactly the same time to launch. This is with many addons (7 or 8 at the last count). Also, FF is very snappy. In fact, it works better with large pages having a bunch of media content than Safari. Except for a few very small glitches, FF 3.5 is as native as you could want it. I just switched back to FF from Opera. I chose Opera over FF for my Mac because it looked native and was snappier than the OS X version of FF. Now Opera seems to be going in the opposite direction (choosing a horribly non-native skin, adding everything and the kitchensink to the browser, becoming painfully unresponsive with every new version).
  - zimbabwe 17y ago
    Can you implement a method of scrolling that actually works with a multitouch pad? That is, 2d scrolling that's smooth and lets me scroll pixel-by-pixel rather than in chunks? There is NOTHING worse than a web browser that can't scroll correctly. It makes the Internet feel fucked-up.
    - rbanffy 17y ago
      "There is NOTHING worse than a web browser that can't scroll correctly." I seriously doubt your statement. I can easily think a lot of things far worse than a browser that doesn't behave the way you expect.
      - zimbabwe 17y ago
        I'm sorry for using hyperbole on the Internet. I'll never ever ever do it again.

kentosi 17y ago

ALMOST acts like an OS X app. There are still outstanding issues regarding the widgets. Take for instance the <select> element, which still looks freakishly non-native when you click on it: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=402625 https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=402625

deleted 17y ago
[deleted]