4 ms·

> If you feel like the event is too immature, don't show up or organize your own events. I don't know how you meant that, but it reads very much like STFU or

by mtrimpe 13y ago

> If you feel like the event is too immature, don't show up or organize your own events. I don't know how you meant that, but it reads very much like STFU or GTFO to me. > The reason there's so much alcohol is because it acts as a social lubricant. Except that alcohol is more than just a social lubricant; it's a disinhibitor. That in and of itself creates an exclusionary environment for many women, because they can't rely on physical dominance to counteract the dangers that come with a large group of uninhibited men. Apart from that; the simple fact that it might not be appealing to a large group of people you wish to involve in your community should be reason enough in- and of itself, much like how insisting on things like dirt-bike racing for team activities might be considered exclusionary for certain groups whom this would appeal less to.

jiggy2011 13y ago
I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing to have multiple events where the vibe is different, a less boozy conference might attract people who would otherwise go to the boozy one if it results in a more productive outcome etc. Once your community is big enough it gets increasingly unlikely that a single planning committee will be able to design an event that appeals to everyone and that is ok, nobody has a monopoly on Javascript conferences.
runj__ 13y ago
This is a fair argument. I have not seen the binge drinking the author brings up other than once at a hackathon but I can see how people could feel discomfort with really really drunk people. People drink at conferences and meetups but I feel that you could listen to all of the talks without being made fun of for not drinking (to be fair: in in my experience). Not hanging around after the talks or whatever is over isn't that weird, even finding the people who do not "binge drink" and staying and talking to them wouldn't be impossible. That said, I feel that it's a different story when it comes to drinking at your workplace.
deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
nahname 13y ago
>they can't rely on physical dominance to counteract the dangers that come with a large group of uninhibited men. I cannot think of a single occurrence of physical violence or rape that occurred at a technical conference. Your projections over all women here are unwarranted. Maybe you feel this way because men are much more aggressive with other men? That would be a fair statement here.
- InclinedPlane 13y ago
  You aren't paying attention then. There was a very high profile case of sexual assault within the tech industry, and at one of these booze filled conference parties as well, only a few months ago.
- mtrimpe 13y ago
  There's plenty of actual harrasment to be found in this list of incidents: http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/index.php?title=Timeline_of_incidents http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/index.php?title=Timeline_of_in... Keep in mind that this is just the subset of women who were strong and determined enough to come out and risk retribution and damaging their career prospects.
  - yummyfajitas 13y ago
    It's hard to take seriously a list of incidents that starts with "a model was photographed, and the photo was later cropped and used as a test image in image processing." Jumping to the very bottom, I see the Paul Graham non-incident and gendered pronouns. (Admittedly, I didn't read too carefully after seeing obvious nonsense everywhere I looked. Perhaps a list which is curated and has silliness removed would be a more useful citation, or at least pointing out which incidents on this list you feel are serious.)
    - mtrimpe 13y ago
      How about this one from October 2013 where a 25-year old woman gets talked into doing a body shot in a bar and ends up getting fingered by her boss while lying on the bar? http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Codemash_sexual_assault http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Codemash_sexual_assault That's when limiting myself to bar-related incidents in direct technology events. If you include conferences here's a full on attempted rape from last year: https://web.archive.org/web/20130627000201/http://georgiaweidman.com/wordpress/guess-you-thought-i-was-someone-to-mess-with/ https://web.archive.org/web/20130627000201/http://georgiawei... I'm even excluding the comic cons because they're arguably not that tech-related but harrasment there seems even more prevalent. Notice how they also all refer to archive links? That's due to a mix of for fear of the consequences of having these posts be at the top of Google when searching for the victims name and straight-up libel suits being initiated by the perpetrators.
yummyfajitas 13y ago
There is more to it. Drinking establishments are great places for unstructured social engagements. There are not a lot of other venues that are similar. When I was in Pune, I was speaking with people (hi Mayank!) who were trying to set up regular hacker meetups. Scheduling formal lectures was easy. But unstructured social engagements was much harder to set up. I suggested that we did it in bars in NY/London, but due to the cultural issues surrounding drinking in Maharashtra bars were out. This made organizing unstructured meetup time really difficult.
- mtrimpe 13y ago
  Of course; drinking establishments make good money on these events so they have a lot of incentive to make this as easy as possible. Come to think of it, that's actually a really good example of an area where we can put in a bit more effort to create more inclusive events. In general it's about finding a format which lets attendees personally contribute to the venue's revenue, which sounds like a problem we should collectively be able to tackle.
  - jiggy2011 13y ago
    What would a more inclusive event look like? Going to a bar and having people socialize with a no-alcohol policy? That gives off a weird puritan vibe. More formal/structured activities are likely to be more exclusionary since people have different ideas about what is fun. Or may not feel comfortable participating in things because of disabilities etc. In a bar at least people are free to make their own fun and come and go as they please.
    - mtrimpe 13y ago
      Something that would quickly come to mind is something like dim-sum or high-tea adapted to evenings and crowds of varying size. Probably just changing the focal point from the bar to the buffet and encouraging seating instead of standing would create a completely different atmosphere. Another variable you could consider playing with is moving from self-service to being served; where the waiters are instructed to dial down the frequency when guests get too far along. Ironically enough unlimited drinks is something that could work fairly well in this context, as long as the implication that excessive boozing is discouraged and will not be enabled by the waiting staff.
onetwofiveten 13y ago
It's not really like insisting on dirt bike racing. The article is like complaining that everyone else likes dirt bike racing and you don't and that makes you feel excluded. edit: Although I can see the point about men drinking being potentially intimidating towards women.
coldtea 13y ago
>> If you feel like the event is too immature, don't show up or organize your own events. >I don't know how you meant that, but it reads very much like STFU or GTFO to me. Well, when you want to change how MOST (by his admission) other attendants have fun, it's really par for the course, isn't it? >>Except that alcohol is more than just a social lubricant; it's a disinhibitor. That in and of itself creates an exclusionary environment for many women, because they can't rely on physical dominance to counteract the dangers that come with a large group of uninhibited men. I've never seen women have much trouble attending dance clubs, bars, concerts and the like -- places full of men and women drinking. A conference, if anything, sounds much safer than those. Are we talking 1950's Alabama women here?
- mtrimpe 13y ago
  I know that you're not particularly sensitive to these issues, but there's a huge difference between attending a bar by choice for personal reasons and having to attend a bar to be able to fully participate in all parts of professional events. As for how much safer it is; I've already commented a bit on that here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7155984 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7155984

by mtrimpe 13y ago

jiggy2011 13y ago

I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing to have multiple events where the vibe is different, a less boozy conference might attract people who would otherwise go to the boozy one if it results in a more productive outcome etc. Once your community is big enough it gets increasingly unlikely that a single planning committee will be able to design an event that appeals to everyone and that is ok, nobody has a monopoly on Javascript conferences.

runj__ 13y ago

This is a fair argument. I have not seen the binge drinking the author brings up other than once at a hackathon but I can see how people could feel discomfort with really really drunk people. People drink at conferences and meetups but I feel that you could listen to all of the talks without being made fun of for not drinking (to be fair: in in my experience). Not hanging around after the talks or whatever is over isn't that weird, even finding the people who do not "binge drink" and staying and talking to them wouldn't be impossible. That said, I feel that it's a different story when it comes to drinking at your workplace.

deleted 13y ago

[deleted]

nahname 13y ago

>they can't rely on physical dominance to counteract the dangers that come with a large group of uninhibited men. I cannot think of a single occurrence of physical violence or rape that occurred at a technical conference. Your projections over all women here are unwarranted. Maybe you feel this way because men are much more aggressive with other men? That would be a fair statement here.

InclinedPlane 13y ago
You aren't paying attention then. There was a very high profile case of sexual assault within the tech industry, and at one of these booze filled conference parties as well, only a few months ago.
mtrimpe 13y ago
There's plenty of actual harrasment to be found in this list of incidents: http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/index.php?title=Timeline_of_incidents http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/index.php?title=Timeline_of_in... Keep in mind that this is just the subset of women who were strong and determined enough to come out and risk retribution and damaging their career prospects.
- yummyfajitas 13y ago
  It's hard to take seriously a list of incidents that starts with "a model was photographed, and the photo was later cropped and used as a test image in image processing." Jumping to the very bottom, I see the Paul Graham non-incident and gendered pronouns. (Admittedly, I didn't read too carefully after seeing obvious nonsense everywhere I looked. Perhaps a list which is curated and has silliness removed would be a more useful citation, or at least pointing out which incidents on this list you feel are serious.)
  - mtrimpe 13y ago
    How about this one from October 2013 where a 25-year old woman gets talked into doing a body shot in a bar and ends up getting fingered by her boss while lying on the bar? http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Codemash_sexual_assault http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Codemash_sexual_assault That's when limiting myself to bar-related incidents in direct technology events. If you include conferences here's a full on attempted rape from last year: https://web.archive.org/web/20130627000201/http://georgiaweidman.com/wordpress/guess-you-thought-i-was-someone-to-mess-with/ https://web.archive.org/web/20130627000201/http://georgiawei... I'm even excluding the comic cons because they're arguably not that tech-related but harrasment there seems even more prevalent. Notice how they also all refer to archive links? That's due to a mix of for fear of the consequences of having these posts be at the top of Google when searching for the victims name and straight-up libel suits being initiated by the perpetrators.

yummyfajitas 13y ago

There is more to it. Drinking establishments are great places for unstructured social engagements. There are not a lot of other venues that are similar. When I was in Pune, I was speaking with people (hi Mayank!) who were trying to set up regular hacker meetups. Scheduling formal lectures was easy. But unstructured social engagements was much harder to set up. I suggested that we did it in bars in NY/London, but due to the cultural issues surrounding drinking in Maharashtra bars were out. This made organizing unstructured meetup time really difficult.

mtrimpe 13y ago
Of course; drinking establishments make good money on these events so they have a lot of incentive to make this as easy as possible. Come to think of it, that's actually a really good example of an area where we can put in a bit more effort to create more inclusive events. In general it's about finding a format which lets attendees personally contribute to the venue's revenue, which sounds like a problem we should collectively be able to tackle.
- jiggy2011 13y ago
  What would a more inclusive event look like? Going to a bar and having people socialize with a no-alcohol policy? That gives off a weird puritan vibe. More formal/structured activities are likely to be more exclusionary since people have different ideas about what is fun. Or may not feel comfortable participating in things because of disabilities etc. In a bar at least people are free to make their own fun and come and go as they please.
  - mtrimpe 13y ago
    Something that would quickly come to mind is something like dim-sum or high-tea adapted to evenings and crowds of varying size. Probably just changing the focal point from the bar to the buffet and encouraging seating instead of standing would create a completely different atmosphere. Another variable you could consider playing with is moving from self-service to being served; where the waiters are instructed to dial down the frequency when guests get too far along. Ironically enough unlimited drinks is something that could work fairly well in this context, as long as the implication that excessive boozing is discouraged and will not be enabled by the waiting staff.

onetwofiveten 13y ago

It's not really like insisting on dirt bike racing. The article is like complaining that everyone else likes dirt bike racing and you don't and that makes you feel excluded. edit: Although I can see the point about men drinking being potentially intimidating towards women.

coldtea 13y ago

>> If you feel like the event is too immature, don't show up or organize your own events. >I don't know how you meant that, but it reads very much like STFU or GTFO to me. Well, when you want to change how MOST (by his admission) other attendants have fun, it's really par for the course, isn't it? >>Except that alcohol is more than just a social lubricant; it's a disinhibitor. That in and of itself creates an exclusionary environment for many women, because they can't rely on physical dominance to counteract the dangers that come with a large group of uninhibited men. I've never seen women have much trouble attending dance clubs, bars, concerts and the like -- places full of men and women drinking. A conference, if anything, sounds much safer than those. Are we talking 1950's Alabama women here?

mtrimpe 13y ago
I know that you're not particularly sensitive to these issues, but there's a huge difference between attending a bar by choice for personal reasons and having to attend a bar to be able to fully participate in all parts of professional events. As for how much safer it is; I've already commented a bit on that here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7155984 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7155984