7 ms·

Our Culture of Exclusion (or, why I'm not going to *conf)

70 points by galapago 13y ago

coldtea 13y ago
>It's the booze. You can't go anywhere, do anything or talk to anyone in the tech industry these days without a drink in your hand. If you try to fake it with a soda water you may as well give up trying to have insightful conversations after the first hour, because everyone else is wasted. If "everyone else is wasted" then why should they catter to the non-wasted demographic? Should they spoil everyone's fun to make a minority feel "included"? I understand that the STATED purpose of the event is not "getting wasted". But an unstated and real consideration for people attending is the opportunity of having one or several drinks with friends. Not everything operates on the "stated" level. A better way would be to have several types of such events, cattered to the different demographics. And if some demographic is not big enough to organize one, well, sometimes in life your tastes are different than most people's and you have to accept that.
- aaren 13y ago
  Perhaps not everyone who is wasted actually wants to be wasted but they do it anyway to fit in and because there is nothing else to do? Perhaps some of the people who don't want to get wasted just stay away from the conference because there is nothing else to do?
- rmk2 13y ago
  If "everyone else is white" then why should they catter to the non-white demographic? Should they spoil everyone's fun to make a minority feel "included"? I understand that the STATED purpose of the event is not "being white". But an unstated and real consideration for people attending is the opportunity of being with one or several white friends. Not everything operates on the "stated" level. A better way would be to have several types of such events, cattered to the different demographics. And if some demographic is not big enough to organize one, well, sometimes in life your tastes are different than most people's and you have to accept that. caveat: to cater
  - jiggy2011 13y ago
    This isn't really the same thing, you can't please all of the people all of the time. You could be as try and offer as diverse activities as you like, say drinking/sports/chess tournament and there is likely to be someone who doesn't like any of those things. A "whites only" restaurant is a different thing entirely to a restaurant where you're not thrilled about the menu.
    - rmk2 13y ago
      Sure, but it does matter how you present your argument, and that's not at all what the GP expressed, even if it might have been the intended meaning.
      - coldtea 13y ago
        Well, since I talked specifically about a PERSONAL behavior (drinking) to be ALLOWED (it's a fucking personal choice), instead of people to be excluded because of their COLOR, I'm pretty sure I didn't expressed anything like the BS racism argument above.
  - lmm 13y ago
    Sarcasm is the lowest form of argument. Go on, expand it out: what are the reasons why that would be a bad thing? Do these reasons also apply to the view in the grandparent post? If so, argue with those reasons.
    - rmk2 13y ago
      My bad.[1] The computing world isn't the most inclusive to begin with, and by additionally alienating parts of the audience that hasn't already been excluded on other grounds (gender, race), none of this gets any better. Conferences carry a lot of symbolic power, because they are representative of a given community, moreso than a forum or a mailing list, where some voices will always be louder than others. The conferences, then, have the onus on them to accommodate a wider audience of people; they also have the chance to shape their respective communities. By creating what has been described by others as "fret party" environments, these communities severly curtail their wider appeal. It also doesn't help the image of programming being a non-respectable profession. If you behave like and cater to the "frat-bros", expect to be treated like one. Most academic conferences seem to handle this better, with drinks receptions, dinners or evening programme separated from the actual conference content. If alcohol is served, that usually means sparkling wine and/or wine, with juices as alternative. Additionally, conference proceedings and drinking are strictly separated. I think the conference dinner, as a whole, is a better format, because it still enables you to chat to other attendees, but since everybody is already eating together and thus connected by a common activity, drinking doesn't have to be the one thing connecting everybody. Whether somebody then has a drink with their meal or not doesn't matter so much. [1]: This might be sarcasm.
- pessimizer 13y ago
  >If "everyone else is wasted" then why should they catter to the non-wasted demographic? This is self-fulfilling. If you create an environment that repulses non-drinkers, you will only have drinkers to cater to.
  - coldtea 13y ago
    Maybe, but it begs the question: how come all those environments (events) come up as repulsive to non-drinkers (and not, say, the opposite)? That is, how did they get their way? Doesn't that imply they are more numerous?
- jonnathanson 13y ago
  "I understand that the STATED purpose of the event is not "getting wasted". But an unstated and real consideration for people attending is the opportunity of having one or several drinks with friends. Not everything operates on the "stated" level." The author's point is all about this issue. Essentially, he's implying mission drift: the stated purpose of the event is being subverted, or even subsumed, by the unstated purpose (drinking). In his opinion, too much emphasis has been placed on the unstated, to the point where the stated is getting left by the wayside. It's an interesting point, though it's very hard to prove, and the author weakens his argument with a lot of heavy-handed moralism of the "This has no place here!" variety. Nevertheless, it's something to consider. When people drink at conferences, do they have to binge drink? And if a majority (or even a perceived majority) of attendees are indeed binge drinking, might that not exclude a fair number of hypothetical attendees who don't want to? It's not a stretch to think that a woman would be put off, or even physically intimidated, by the idea of being in a clear minority among a large crowd of young, drunk males. Similarly, older would-be attendees might opt out if they feel they're just going to show up to a glorified frat party. In the author's view, the problem isn't so much the presence of alcohol as it is an alcohol-centric conference culture. The problem with this argument, of course, is its heavy reliance on subjective experience. One person's loud, annoying frat party is another person's good time. One observer's "everyone is binging" is another observer's "only a few people were, and they were embarrassing themselves." One person's "I felt excluded for being sober" is another person's "That's all in your head." The best way to explore this issue is to get out of the subjective and into the empirical. I'd be very curious to see the results of polling among past and would-be attendees to gauge their feelings on this issue. For those who opted out, why did they? And what patterns emerge in their feedback? We'd probably run into some issues with sample size and selection, but something would be better than pure speculation. We really have no place speaking on behalf of those who aren't present, no matter how small a minority they might be. (Cf. "tyranny of the majority" on Wikipedia or other sites.) The net solution probably isn't that every conference needs to go straight-edge. But at the same time, it's probably not the opposite: that everything is perfectly fine, and those who don't like it can go somewhere else. The author has raised an interesting point, and we should make an effort to hear from those who feel similarly.
dangrossman 13y ago
Is this a SV thing? Anyone in other cities care to chime in? I've been to a few "camps" and "confs" and tech meetup groups in Philadelphia, and none of them were at bars nor catered with free beer. "We're meeting up at X bar after if anyone wants to come" is a common thing to hear or even see on a schedule, but the actual events are about the panels/speakers/networking... usually with ample time to socialize.
- robotic 13y ago
  I can't remember the last time I went to a conference in Atlanta and saw drinking events scheduled.
- stdbrouw 13y ago
  That's part of the problem though: socializing is a really big part of a lot of conferences, and if the people you want to meet are all in a bar, getting a drink, then it can be really hard to say "y'know, I'm just going to get me a sparkling water".
  - mhurron 13y ago
    Sounds like a personal problem, because no, it's not hard to say that.
    - VexXtreme 13y ago
      Indeed. I don't know what's so hard about drinking whatever you want to drink. If you're afraid of being "excluded" or "ostracized", then you'd do well to change who you hang out with.
    - stdbrouw 13y ago
      Because peer pressure only exists in high school? And maybe it's not hard to say no to a single drink, but a lot of these events go past midnight, and the reason they "work" is because the next day when you pass each other in the hallway you can say "woah, bit of a hangover too?" and, silly as it sounds, bond over that. Good luck with that if you're only going to drink water, surrounded by people getting progressively drunk.
tlarkworthy 13y ago
Christ, I am too old to binge drink, it slays me the next day, so I avoid partying like I used to. I don't moan about other people's lifestyle though. Conferences are one of the few places I have a low amount of beverages though, it does speed up the networking. If people want to go over the top, embarrass themselves, then fair enough, that's their prerogative. People want different things in a conference.
_delirium 13y ago
Interesting, I didn't realize this kind of thing happened. Most of the conferences I go to do have social events in bars or restaurants, sometimes with open bars, but they don't really have an "epic party, man!" kind of feel, or sloppy-drunk people. Culturally dependent, maybe? In much of Europe it's normal to socialize in a bar or restaurant at lunch or dinner or afterwards. But you'd be having some wine or beer and/or food in some kind of reasonable establishment and chatting, not slamming back vodka shots while a DJ plays through huge speakers, at least if the attendees are mostly post-university-age.
- untothebreach 13y ago
  None of the conferences I've been to (in the U.S.) have been like he describes either. The post is from 2012, and if I remember correctly, especially then, there was a stereotype of the Ruby community for having more than it's share of "brogrammers," so maybe it's a community thing?
  - donw 13y ago
    Have been to several Ruby conferences over the past year, and I've never seen this sort of thing during a conference. The after-parties can get a little nuts, but those aren't handled by the organizers -- and it'd be more than a little asinine to tell a group of adults what they can and can't do in their spare time.
    - untothebreach 13y ago
      That's good to know. I definitely did not mean to imply that the Ruby community was "the problem."
      - donw 13y ago
        No worries -- I didn't interpret it that way at all.
    - dictum 13y ago
      >It'd be more than a little asinine to tell a group of adults what they can and can't do in their spare time. I take it you haven't used this global network called Internet, and your comment was sent through some kind of SMS proxy.
blowski 13y ago
On the whole, I agree with this. Unfortunately, as programming has gone mainstream, so too has its culture. In London at least, offices and coworking spaces seem to take more inspiration from Mad Magazine than Xerox PARC, like somehow we'd write better software if we were just a bit more wacky. I for one would love programming environments to look a bit more grown up and less like a frat party. edit: changed 'creative' to 'wacky'
- deleted 13y ago
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  - blowski 13y ago
    How do you mean?
- vanderZwan 13y ago
  > Offices and coworking spaces seem to take more inspiration from Mad Magazine than Xerox PARC, like somehow we'd write better software if we were more creative. I get what you are trying to say, but as a guy with a degree in arts who considers Alan Kay one of his big heroes (if old and grumpy), I have to protest against the implied definition of "creative" here.
  - blowski 13y ago
    Yeah, I changed the word to wacky, because I think that's more what I was trying to say.
- Nursie 13y ago
  There are plenty of mature workspaces in London, with people that take the job seriously and consider their role akin to engineering rather than playtime at the zoo. Never have worked with the old-street set though, so I guess YMMV.
- shangxiao 13y ago
  So do you pine for the old IBM days?
deleted 13y ago
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sjtgraham 13y ago
I pretty much abstain from alcohol, and despite my abstemiousness never have I once taken umbrage that others like to drink when I happen to be around. It's quite sad that someone should get so worked up about something so trivial.
- Argorak 13y ago
  I think that depends on context a lot. If you've got room to roam a group of drunk people that keeps to itself is rarely a problem. I've been to conferences where the party was in a small, crowded and loud area and I just didn't feel good because I couldn't move away (although I do drink). On my own conference, we take great care that beer is served in open areas and that everyone can choose where he sits around. That works very well. It is an issue, it is one that can very easily be solved with a bit of open-mindedness a bit of care.
lafar6502 13y ago
Maybe the problem is with the choice of conferences to attend, not with people attending them?
jiggy2011 13y ago
I don't think this is a thing specific to tech, I'm not sure about the US but I'm in the UK and at every company I have worked at (including non tech companies) "social activities" has always been synonymous with "drink excessively".
- JonnieCache 13y ago
  In my experience there is usually a civilised meal, and then excessive drinking afterwards, and nobody is thought badly of for leaving after the meal, regardless if they have children to look after or if they simple don't like drinking.
oskarth 13y ago
There's a world of difference between being excluded because you are of a certain gender, religion, ethnicity or sexual orientation and because you don't like a certain beverage. Hey, I don't like the naive techno-optimist prevalent in many technology events, but that doesn't in any way make me excluded. It just means I might have a different attitude and hold a minority opinion compared to my peers, and that I find myself bored and wanting to leave listening to some Singularity Guru. Same thing goes with alcohol: if you don't like, don't drink. If you feel like the event is too immature, don't show up or organize your own events. The reason there's so much alcohol (though I haven't really come across the binge drinking he's talking about) is because it acts as a social lubricant, which turns out to be useful for many people, plus it's a nice freebie for companies, just like pizzas (don't eat it if you don't like it).
- mtrimpe 13y ago
  > If you feel like the event is too immature, don't show up or organize your own events. I don't know how you meant that, but it reads very much like STFU or GTFO to me. > The reason there's so much alcohol is because it acts as a social lubricant. Except that alcohol is more than just a social lubricant; it's a disinhibitor. That in and of itself creates an exclusionary environment for many women, because they can't rely on physical dominance to counteract the dangers that come with a large group of uninhibited men. Apart from that; the simple fact that it might not be appealing to a large group of people you wish to involve in your community should be reason enough in- and of itself, much like how insisting on things like dirt-bike racing for team activities might be considered exclusionary for certain groups whom this would appeal less to.
  - jiggy2011 13y ago
    I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing to have multiple events where the vibe is different, a less boozy conference might attract people who would otherwise go to the boozy one if it results in a more productive outcome etc. Once your community is big enough it gets increasingly unlikely that a single planning committee will be able to design an event that appeals to everyone and that is ok, nobody has a monopoly on Javascript conferences.
skrebbel 13y ago
> Come on, should we also have complimentary joints available? You know marijuana use can be linked to reduced stress and studies suggest it can be useful in treating depression! Please. This doesn't belong in the workplace! And I ask, why not?
- cmiles74 13y ago
  This could be a replacement for beer Friday. I agree, why not?
- dictum 13y ago
  Snarky strawman time: I'm sure the author thought the average reader would, by dint of puritanism, be repulsed by people smoking weed at a conference. I suggest using crack or heroin for reefermadnessed analogies like that next time. No, go nuts: Krokodil. Let the reader imagine people using krokodil at a conference. * * * It's "unprofessional". Never do anything in your spare time that does not further your career and company.
- drakeandrews 13y ago
  Unless you're really, really bad at drinking, having a beer is not physically forcing others around you to drink. If you start smoking, then everyone else around you has to deal with the smoke. I'm told that using vaporisers removes the smoke aspect, but now you've got a cloud of THC laden steam which, whilst not as bad as a cloud of THC laden smoke, is still a pretty selfish thing to inflict on other people.
kyro 13y ago
I hate alcohol. It's putrid to me. I've tried drinking everything from some of the better brewed beers to sweeter wines, and I just can't stand the taste. So when I go to a social event that heavily involves drinking, I opt for a water or a soda. Not once has anyone treated me differently, or have I felt that my interactions with others were at all hindered by my lack of alcohol intake. I think this is more a personal issue, both with the person not drinking, and the people who are. I imagine a lot of these conferences tend to attract a younger demographic than what I'm used to seeing in my field (medicine) where people have reached an age where they just don't care if you're drinking or not, and so perhaps there's a component of immaturity here.
- donw 13y ago
  I do this too when I'm not drinking for a period of time (diet). Never had a problem, and I live in Japan, a country that literally has "all you can drink" as an option at most bars.
Bahamut 13y ago
I have not seen any of these issues at the meetups here in DC or the one conference I've been to (ng-conf). People drank some, sure (including me), but binge drinking wasn't on the order of agenda for most of us. Nobody was judged for not drinking either.
VMG 13y ago
This post makes me feel excluded for drinking beer.
- danellis 13y ago
  Half the posts on HN and Twitter make me feel excluded for not being a dick in one way or another.
- sharpneli 13y ago
  It makes me feel bit ashamed for liking beer. Discussing while having beers has been excellent source of new ideas for me. While it hampers the ability to think logically it makes thinking outside of the box easier. And it makes the conversation more fluid. I, like so many others, am so unsocial when absolutely sober that completely alcohol-free events are actually really hard.
bowlofpetunias 13y ago
As far as I can tell, this is not about alcohol, this is about culture. Mostly about the immature American drinking culture that is the result of the absurdly high drinking age. Drinking alcohol <> getting totally wasted, and the presence and consumption of alcohol does not necessarily lead to an atmosphere where sober people should feel excluded.
1angryhacker 13y ago
The author should probably lighten up, but I agree with the general sentiment. If you want to drink, hang out with your friends. Your colleagues may also be your friends, or maybe your friends are in the tech scene too, but let's get real, software dev is a job, a career and it puts roofs over people's heads and food on their tables. Treat it with respect.
grandalf 13y ago
There is a strong tradition of puritanism in the US, and this post highlights some of the points of tension. Unfortunately, like many such arguments, the author makes what is largely a moral argument and amounts to finger shaking. The real reason brogrammers are entering the field is b/c money flows have shifted from things like investment banking and law into technology. It's the same reason more women, minorities, poets, etc. are entering the field as well (more opportunity in general) so it's hard to paint it as a bad thing. Tech culture is broadly liberal (with a small L). All kinds of nerds and geeks have found a home here. The conflict is not between true nerds and brogrammers, it's between a liberal/open mindset and a closed/puritan mindset. In the former, there will occasionally be a few annoying people who can't handle a few drinks; in the latter alcohol is a poison that corrupts all who partake and erodes beneficial social order.
- deleted 13y ago
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menriquez 13y ago
"It's sort of like high school is repeating itself." welcome to life dude, get over yourself.
JonnieCache 13y ago
I've just realised: if the age of the stereotypical american tech worker is 23 or so, that means these people have only been able to drink for a couple of years. Suddenly these posts make a lot more sense.
- jiggy2011 13y ago
  That's a good point. In the UK people can buy alcohol at 18 or drink it at home or with a meal earlier than that. By 23 everyone is 5+ years into their "drinking career" and (mostly) know their limits. "Getting hammered" for the sake of it is kinda passe at that stage too. If US tech companies are full of people with the alcohol maturity of a British 19-20 year old then I can see why that might end badly.
jackgavigan 13y ago
Maybe Ryan Duk should organise a "dry" conference, for those who share his dislike for alcohol and those who drink it. I'm sure it would be a massive success although, as an Irishman, it wouldn't be my cup of tea.
calinet6 13y ago
Point of data: nearly all conferences for all industries revolve largely around drinking. I worked in the outdoor industry for 5 years and went to the Outdoor Retailer trade show on the floor of the Salt Lake City convention center, which houses huge brands from all over the world. And what happened at 4pm every day of the conference? Every other booth or so tapped a keg or opened their coolers. They gave out free glasses ("swag"), free beer, free bottles. And during that time, people knew that all the real connections and business was happening. You'd get far more networking done over two hours of beers and mingling than you'd accomplished all day trying to sell yourself to people with your best poker face and laptop demo. It comes down to this: for the human species, it's more genuine to have fun together and build social ties based on real emotional connections and shared experience than to focus on a topic in isolation. I think this is the effect you notice, and it's not at all uncommon. In fact, I'd say compared to other experiences I've had, from college to the Outdoor Retailer trade shows, to now two companies I've worked for where alcohol has been present and accounted for, the programmers are the mildest of the set. I get it, I really do. I've been there and I've been frustrated by the alcoholic focus of social gatherings, I've been frustrated by friends' desire to go to dingy bars just to drink, I've been a wallflower at frat parties watching the puzzling behavior of the curious species in front of me. I've done that thing, this thing you're frustrated about and writing about. And then I grew up. I'll do the same thing, go out to bars, have just one drink, be stunned at all the drunk people, but I can also look at it from their perspective. These are all people trying to have fun in a life in which it's difficult to find meaning, trying to form connections in a world where being alone and cold and digital has become the norm, trying to break down the walls of their own frustrations and insecurities and be someone they didn't think they could be, but most of all, trying to stop trying so hard. I don't know. It seems to make no sense, and yet it does in the context of a little experience and empathy. There's balance and moderation in everything, and certainly I agree that there's a little too much focus on excess, even if it is just a vocal minority being very obvious and loud. But a beer or two now and then to help you relax and enjoy life just a tiny bit more is certainly not to be discounted entirely as a negative, and the effect it has in a group setting is sometimes stunning to watch. So I feel some balance is required in this perspective.
- gtz60 13y ago
nebstrebor 13y ago
A few observations: 1) this isn't discrimination but it can encourage self-selection into or out of the group; 2) If tech firms, or a segment of the tech industry as a larger entity (e.g., rails, node, etc.) promote themselves, recruit, and try to be cool by sponsoring a bunch of drinking events, they'll attract programmers who like drinking events, and that will become part of the culture of the company and/or industry, since that's what brought them together, what they bonded over, and what they have in common outside of work. 3) There are other (a)venues to facilitate socialization (ice cream, coffee, etc.) including things like pizza or bowling where alcohol can be a part of it, but isn't the main event. Just like drinking, no one thing is for everyone, but that's ok. Consider it a venn diagram, where some in the industry seem to be only filling one circle.
ryanackley 13y ago
The irony is that by perpetuating stereotypes like "brogrammers", the author is actually encouraging a culture of exclusion. The meme can be a little funny but I find myself stopping and thinking. "Wait, I go to the gym, I have a social life, I occassionally go to bars, does that mean I'm a brogrammer?". The point of it is to ridicule certain behaviors in a social group (programmers). It says "if you don't fit my criteria for how a programmer should behave then you aren't one of us."
agentultra 13y ago
Drinking is everywhere. My father in law works in dental implants and he goes to conferences on cruise ships... which are all about drinking in between talks. You don't have to partake of course but there aren't many people who make that choice (he doesn't "get" drinking at all). I agree that keeping it out of the conference itinerary is probably best. I have only been to Pycon/PyconCA 2012, 2013 and will be speaking at 2014. I don't recall there being an official, sponsored event at a bar. There were provided areas for impromptu talk sessions and meetups (to hack or play board games or whatever). But overall it seemed like drinking was something that was scheduled unofficially for those interested in partaking after the day was over. It might help trying out different communities. I know in Toronto the Ruby group frequently meets up for... drinks [0]. And I worked for a company that sponsored a few javascript meetups... and provided drinks. At least in Toronto there's a strong link between the Ruby/JS community and going out for beers. The Python and Lisp groups tend to meetup at co-working spaces and cafes. [0] https://twitter.com/torontorb https://twitter.com/torontorb (just count the number of times "drinkup" is mentioned... I never even realized this was a thing until I read this article [1] http://createsend.com/t/j-72A1831D965A5352 http://createsend.com/t/j-72A1831D965A5352 One of many Toronto javascript events organized at a bar.
hajderr 13y ago
Spot on bro !

70 points by galapago 13y ago

>It's the booze. You can't go anywhere, do anything or talk to anyone in the tech industry these days without a drink in your hand. If you try to fake it with a soda water you may as well give up trying to have insightful conversations after the first hour, because everyone else is wasted. If "everyone else is wasted" then why should they catter to the non-wasted demographic? Should they spoil everyone's fun to make a minority feel "included"? I understand that the STATED purpose of the event is not "getting wasted". But an unstated and real consideration for people attending is the opportunity of having one or several drinks with friends. Not everything operates on the "stated" level. A better way would be to have several types of such events, cattered to the different demographics. And if some demographic is not big enough to organize one, well, sometimes in life your tastes are different than most people's and you have to accept that.

aaren 13y ago
Perhaps not everyone who is wasted actually wants to be wasted but they do it anyway to fit in and because there is nothing else to do? Perhaps some of the people who don't want to get wasted just stay away from the conference because there is nothing else to do?
rmk2 13y ago
If "everyone else is white" then why should they catter to the non-white demographic? Should they spoil everyone's fun to make a minority feel "included"? I understand that the STATED purpose of the event is not "being white". But an unstated and real consideration for people attending is the opportunity of being with one or several white friends. Not everything operates on the "stated" level. A better way would be to have several types of such events, cattered to the different demographics. And if some demographic is not big enough to organize one, well, sometimes in life your tastes are different than most people's and you have to accept that. caveat: to cater
- jiggy2011 13y ago
  This isn't really the same thing, you can't please all of the people all of the time. You could be as try and offer as diverse activities as you like, say drinking/sports/chess tournament and there is likely to be someone who doesn't like any of those things. A "whites only" restaurant is a different thing entirely to a restaurant where you're not thrilled about the menu.
  - rmk2 13y ago
    Sure, but it does matter how you present your argument, and that's not at all what the GP expressed, even if it might have been the intended meaning.
    - coldtea 13y ago
      Well, since I talked specifically about a PERSONAL behavior (drinking) to be ALLOWED (it's a fucking personal choice), instead of people to be excluded because of their COLOR, I'm pretty sure I didn't expressed anything like the BS racism argument above.
- lmm 13y ago
  Sarcasm is the lowest form of argument. Go on, expand it out: what are the reasons why that would be a bad thing? Do these reasons also apply to the view in the grandparent post? If so, argue with those reasons.
  - rmk2 13y ago
    My bad.[1] The computing world isn't the most inclusive to begin with, and by additionally alienating parts of the audience that hasn't already been excluded on other grounds (gender, race), none of this gets any better. Conferences carry a lot of symbolic power, because they are representative of a given community, moreso than a forum or a mailing list, where some voices will always be louder than others. The conferences, then, have the onus on them to accommodate a wider audience of people; they also have the chance to shape their respective communities. By creating what has been described by others as "fret party" environments, these communities severly curtail their wider appeal. It also doesn't help the image of programming being a non-respectable profession. If you behave like and cater to the "frat-bros", expect to be treated like one. Most academic conferences seem to handle this better, with drinks receptions, dinners or evening programme separated from the actual conference content. If alcohol is served, that usually means sparkling wine and/or wine, with juices as alternative. Additionally, conference proceedings and drinking are strictly separated. I think the conference dinner, as a whole, is a better format, because it still enables you to chat to other attendees, but since everybody is already eating together and thus connected by a common activity, drinking doesn't have to be the one thing connecting everybody. Whether somebody then has a drink with their meal or not doesn't matter so much. [1]: This might be sarcasm.
pessimizer 13y ago
>If "everyone else is wasted" then why should they catter to the non-wasted demographic? This is self-fulfilling. If you create an environment that repulses non-drinkers, you will only have drinkers to cater to.
- coldtea 13y ago
  Maybe, but it begs the question: how come all those environments (events) come up as repulsive to non-drinkers (and not, say, the opposite)? That is, how did they get their way? Doesn't that imply they are more numerous?
jonnathanson 13y ago
"I understand that the STATED purpose of the event is not "getting wasted". But an unstated and real consideration for people attending is the opportunity of having one or several drinks with friends. Not everything operates on the "stated" level." The author's point is all about this issue. Essentially, he's implying mission drift: the stated purpose of the event is being subverted, or even subsumed, by the unstated purpose (drinking). In his opinion, too much emphasis has been placed on the unstated, to the point where the stated is getting left by the wayside. It's an interesting point, though it's very hard to prove, and the author weakens his argument with a lot of heavy-handed moralism of the "This has no place here!" variety. Nevertheless, it's something to consider. When people drink at conferences, do they have to binge drink? And if a majority (or even a perceived majority) of attendees are indeed binge drinking, might that not exclude a fair number of hypothetical attendees who don't want to? It's not a stretch to think that a woman would be put off, or even physically intimidated, by the idea of being in a clear minority among a large crowd of young, drunk males. Similarly, older would-be attendees might opt out if they feel they're just going to show up to a glorified frat party. In the author's view, the problem isn't so much the presence of alcohol as it is an alcohol-centric conference culture. The problem with this argument, of course, is its heavy reliance on subjective experience. One person's loud, annoying frat party is another person's good time. One observer's "everyone is binging" is another observer's "only a few people were, and they were embarrassing themselves." One person's "I felt excluded for being sober" is another person's "That's all in your head." The best way to explore this issue is to get out of the subjective and into the empirical. I'd be very curious to see the results of polling among past and would-be attendees to gauge their feelings on this issue. For those who opted out, why did they? And what patterns emerge in their feedback? We'd probably run into some issues with sample size and selection, but something would be better than pure speculation. We really have no place speaking on behalf of those who aren't present, no matter how small a minority they might be. (Cf. "tyranny of the majority" on Wikipedia or other sites.) The net solution probably isn't that every conference needs to go straight-edge. But at the same time, it's probably not the opposite: that everything is perfectly fine, and those who don't like it can go somewhere else. The author has raised an interesting point, and we should make an effort to hear from those who feel similarly.

dangrossman 13y ago

Is this a SV thing? Anyone in other cities care to chime in? I've been to a few "camps" and "confs" and tech meetup groups in Philadelphia, and none of them were at bars nor catered with free beer. "We're meeting up at X bar after if anyone wants to come" is a common thing to hear or even see on a schedule, but the actual events are about the panels/speakers/networking... usually with ample time to socialize.

robotic 13y ago
I can't remember the last time I went to a conference in Atlanta and saw drinking events scheduled.
stdbrouw 13y ago
That's part of the problem though: socializing is a really big part of a lot of conferences, and if the people you want to meet are all in a bar, getting a drink, then it can be really hard to say "y'know, I'm just going to get me a sparkling water".
- mhurron 13y ago
  Sounds like a personal problem, because no, it's not hard to say that.
  - VexXtreme 13y ago
    Indeed. I don't know what's so hard about drinking whatever you want to drink. If you're afraid of being "excluded" or "ostracized", then you'd do well to change who you hang out with.
  - stdbrouw 13y ago
    Because peer pressure only exists in high school? And maybe it's not hard to say no to a single drink, but a lot of these events go past midnight, and the reason they "work" is because the next day when you pass each other in the hallway you can say "woah, bit of a hangover too?" and, silly as it sounds, bond over that. Good luck with that if you're only going to drink water, surrounded by people getting progressively drunk.

tlarkworthy 13y ago

Christ, I am too old to binge drink, it slays me the next day, so I avoid partying like I used to. I don't moan about other people's lifestyle though. Conferences are one of the few places I have a low amount of beverages though, it does speed up the networking. If people want to go over the top, embarrass themselves, then fair enough, that's their prerogative. People want different things in a conference.

_delirium 13y ago

Interesting, I didn't realize this kind of thing happened. Most of the conferences I go to do have social events in bars or restaurants, sometimes with open bars, but they don't really have an "epic party, man!" kind of feel, or sloppy-drunk people. Culturally dependent, maybe? In much of Europe it's normal to socialize in a bar or restaurant at lunch or dinner or afterwards. But you'd be having some wine or beer and/or food in some kind of reasonable establishment and chatting, not slamming back vodka shots while a DJ plays through huge speakers, at least if the attendees are mostly post-university-age.

untothebreach 13y ago
None of the conferences I've been to (in the U.S.) have been like he describes either. The post is from 2012, and if I remember correctly, especially then, there was a stereotype of the Ruby community for having more than it's share of "brogrammers," so maybe it's a community thing?
- donw 13y ago
  Have been to several Ruby conferences over the past year, and I've never seen this sort of thing during a conference. The after-parties can get a little nuts, but those aren't handled by the organizers -- and it'd be more than a little asinine to tell a group of adults what they can and can't do in their spare time.
  - untothebreach 13y ago
    That's good to know. I definitely did not mean to imply that the Ruby community was "the problem."
    - donw 13y ago
      No worries -- I didn't interpret it that way at all.
  - dictum 13y ago
    >It'd be more than a little asinine to tell a group of adults what they can and can't do in their spare time. I take it you haven't used this global network called Internet, and your comment was sent through some kind of SMS proxy.

blowski 13y ago

On the whole, I agree with this. Unfortunately, as programming has gone mainstream, so too has its culture. In London at least, offices and coworking spaces seem to take more inspiration from Mad Magazine than Xerox PARC, like somehow we'd write better software if we were just a bit more wacky. I for one would love programming environments to look a bit more grown up and less like a frat party. edit: changed 'creative' to 'wacky'

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- blowski 13y ago
  How do you mean?
vanderZwan 13y ago
> Offices and coworking spaces seem to take more inspiration from Mad Magazine than Xerox PARC, like somehow we'd write better software if we were more creative. I get what you are trying to say, but as a guy with a degree in arts who considers Alan Kay one of his big heroes (if old and grumpy), I have to protest against the implied definition of "creative" here.
- blowski 13y ago
  Yeah, I changed the word to wacky, because I think that's more what I was trying to say.
Nursie 13y ago
There are plenty of mature workspaces in London, with people that take the job seriously and consider their role akin to engineering rather than playtime at the zoo. Never have worked with the old-street set though, so I guess YMMV.
shangxiao 13y ago
So do you pine for the old IBM days?

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sjtgraham 13y ago

I pretty much abstain from alcohol, and despite my abstemiousness never have I once taken umbrage that others like to drink when I happen to be around. It's quite sad that someone should get so worked up about something so trivial.

Argorak 13y ago
I think that depends on context a lot. If you've got room to roam a group of drunk people that keeps to itself is rarely a problem. I've been to conferences where the party was in a small, crowded and loud area and I just didn't feel good because I couldn't move away (although I do drink). On my own conference, we take great care that beer is served in open areas and that everyone can choose where he sits around. That works very well. It is an issue, it is one that can very easily be solved with a bit of open-mindedness a bit of care.

lafar6502 13y ago

Maybe the problem is with the choice of conferences to attend, not with people attending them?

jiggy2011 13y ago

I don't think this is a thing specific to tech, I'm not sure about the US but I'm in the UK and at every company I have worked at (including non tech companies) "social activities" has always been synonymous with "drink excessively".

JonnieCache 13y ago
In my experience there is usually a civilised meal, and then excessive drinking afterwards, and nobody is thought badly of for leaving after the meal, regardless if they have children to look after or if they simple don't like drinking.

oskarth 13y ago

There's a world of difference between being excluded because you are of a certain gender, religion, ethnicity or sexual orientation and because you don't like a certain beverage. Hey, I don't like the naive techno-optimist prevalent in many technology events, but that doesn't in any way make me excluded. It just means I might have a different attitude and hold a minority opinion compared to my peers, and that I find myself bored and wanting to leave listening to some Singularity Guru. Same thing goes with alcohol: if you don't like, don't drink. If you feel like the event is too immature, don't show up or organize your own events. The reason there's so much alcohol (though I haven't really come across the binge drinking he's talking about) is because it acts as a social lubricant, which turns out to be useful for many people, plus it's a nice freebie for companies, just like pizzas (don't eat it if you don't like it).

mtrimpe 13y ago
> If you feel like the event is too immature, don't show up or organize your own events. I don't know how you meant that, but it reads very much like STFU or GTFO to me. > The reason there's so much alcohol is because it acts as a social lubricant. Except that alcohol is more than just a social lubricant; it's a disinhibitor. That in and of itself creates an exclusionary environment for many women, because they can't rely on physical dominance to counteract the dangers that come with a large group of uninhibited men. Apart from that; the simple fact that it might not be appealing to a large group of people you wish to involve in your community should be reason enough in- and of itself, much like how insisting on things like dirt-bike racing for team activities might be considered exclusionary for certain groups whom this would appeal less to.
- jiggy2011 13y ago
  I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing to have multiple events where the vibe is different, a less boozy conference might attract people who would otherwise go to the boozy one if it results in a more productive outcome etc. Once your community is big enough it gets increasingly unlikely that a single planning committee will be able to design an event that appeals to everyone and that is ok, nobody has a monopoly on Javascript conferences.

skrebbel 13y ago

> Come on, should we also have complimentary joints available? You know marijuana use can be linked to reduced stress and studies suggest it can be useful in treating depression! Please. This doesn't belong in the workplace! And I ask, why not?

cmiles74 13y ago
This could be a replacement for beer Friday. I agree, why not?
dictum 13y ago
Snarky strawman time: I'm sure the author thought the average reader would, by dint of puritanism, be repulsed by people smoking weed at a conference. I suggest using crack or heroin for reefermadnessed analogies like that next time. No, go nuts: Krokodil. Let the reader imagine people using krokodil at a conference. * * * It's "unprofessional". Never do anything in your spare time that does not further your career and company.
drakeandrews 13y ago
Unless you're really, really bad at drinking, having a beer is not physically forcing others around you to drink. If you start smoking, then everyone else around you has to deal with the smoke. I'm told that using vaporisers removes the smoke aspect, but now you've got a cloud of THC laden steam which, whilst not as bad as a cloud of THC laden smoke, is still a pretty selfish thing to inflict on other people.

kyro 13y ago

I hate alcohol. It's putrid to me. I've tried drinking everything from some of the better brewed beers to sweeter wines, and I just can't stand the taste. So when I go to a social event that heavily involves drinking, I opt for a water or a soda. Not once has anyone treated me differently, or have I felt that my interactions with others were at all hindered by my lack of alcohol intake. I think this is more a personal issue, both with the person not drinking, and the people who are. I imagine a lot of these conferences tend to attract a younger demographic than what I'm used to seeing in my field (medicine) where people have reached an age where they just don't care if you're drinking or not, and so perhaps there's a component of immaturity here.

donw 13y ago
I do this too when I'm not drinking for a period of time (diet). Never had a problem, and I live in Japan, a country that literally has "all you can drink" as an option at most bars.

Bahamut 13y ago

I have not seen any of these issues at the meetups here in DC or the one conference I've been to (ng-conf). People drank some, sure (including me), but binge drinking wasn't on the order of agenda for most of us. Nobody was judged for not drinking either.

VMG 13y ago

This post makes me feel excluded for drinking beer.

danellis 13y ago
Half the posts on HN and Twitter make me feel excluded for not being a dick in one way or another.
sharpneli 13y ago
It makes me feel bit ashamed for liking beer. Discussing while having beers has been excellent source of new ideas for me. While it hampers the ability to think logically it makes thinking outside of the box easier. And it makes the conversation more fluid. I, like so many others, am so unsocial when absolutely sober that completely alcohol-free events are actually really hard.

bowlofpetunias 13y ago

As far as I can tell, this is not about alcohol, this is about culture. Mostly about the immature American drinking culture that is the result of the absurdly high drinking age. Drinking alcohol <> getting totally wasted, and the presence and consumption of alcohol does not necessarily lead to an atmosphere where sober people should feel excluded.

1angryhacker 13y ago

The author should probably lighten up, but I agree with the general sentiment. If you want to drink, hang out with your friends. Your colleagues may also be your friends, or maybe your friends are in the tech scene too, but let's get real, software dev is a job, a career and it puts roofs over people's heads and food on their tables. Treat it with respect.

grandalf 13y ago

There is a strong tradition of puritanism in the US, and this post highlights some of the points of tension. Unfortunately, like many such arguments, the author makes what is largely a moral argument and amounts to finger shaking. The real reason brogrammers are entering the field is b/c money flows have shifted from things like investment banking and law into technology. It's the same reason more women, minorities, poets, etc. are entering the field as well (more opportunity in general) so it's hard to paint it as a bad thing. Tech culture is broadly liberal (with a small L). All kinds of nerds and geeks have found a home here. The conflict is not between true nerds and brogrammers, it's between a liberal/open mindset and a closed/puritan mindset. In the former, there will occasionally be a few annoying people who can't handle a few drinks; in the latter alcohol is a poison that corrupts all who partake and erodes beneficial social order.

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menriquez 13y ago

"It's sort of like high school is repeating itself." welcome to life dude, get over yourself.

JonnieCache 13y ago

I've just realised: if the age of the stereotypical american tech worker is 23 or so, that means these people have only been able to drink for a couple of years. Suddenly these posts make a lot more sense.

jiggy2011 13y ago
That's a good point. In the UK people can buy alcohol at 18 or drink it at home or with a meal earlier than that. By 23 everyone is 5+ years into their "drinking career" and (mostly) know their limits. "Getting hammered" for the sake of it is kinda passe at that stage too. If US tech companies are full of people with the alcohol maturity of a British 19-20 year old then I can see why that might end badly.

jackgavigan 13y ago

Maybe Ryan Duk should organise a "dry" conference, for those who share his dislike for alcohol and those who drink it. I'm sure it would be a massive success although, as an Irishman, it wouldn't be my cup of tea.

calinet6 13y ago

Point of data: nearly all conferences for all industries revolve largely around drinking. I worked in the outdoor industry for 5 years and went to the Outdoor Retailer trade show on the floor of the Salt Lake City convention center, which houses huge brands from all over the world. And what happened at 4pm every day of the conference? Every other booth or so tapped a keg or opened their coolers. They gave out free glasses ("swag"), free beer, free bottles. And during that time, people knew that all the real connections and business was happening. You'd get far more networking done over two hours of beers and mingling than you'd accomplished all day trying to sell yourself to people with your best poker face and laptop demo. It comes down to this: for the human species, it's more genuine to have fun together and build social ties based on real emotional connections and shared experience than to focus on a topic in isolation. I think this is the effect you notice, and it's not at all uncommon. In fact, I'd say compared to other experiences I've had, from college to the Outdoor Retailer trade shows, to now two companies I've worked for where alcohol has been present and accounted for, the programmers are the mildest of the set. I get it, I really do. I've been there and I've been frustrated by the alcoholic focus of social gatherings, I've been frustrated by friends' desire to go to dingy bars just to drink, I've been a wallflower at frat parties watching the puzzling behavior of the curious species in front of me. I've done that thing, this thing you're frustrated about and writing about. And then I grew up. I'll do the same thing, go out to bars, have just one drink, be stunned at all the drunk people, but I can also look at it from their perspective. These are all people trying to have fun in a life in which it's difficult to find meaning, trying to form connections in a world where being alone and cold and digital has become the norm, trying to break down the walls of their own frustrations and insecurities and be someone they didn't think they could be, but most of all, trying to stop trying so hard. I don't know. It seems to make no sense, and yet it does in the context of a little experience and empathy. There's balance and moderation in everything, and certainly I agree that there's a little too much focus on excess, even if it is just a vocal minority being very obvious and loud. But a beer or two now and then to help you relax and enjoy life just a tiny bit more is certainly not to be discounted entirely as a negative, and the effect it has in a group setting is sometimes stunning to watch. So I feel some balance is required in this perspective.

gtz60 13y ago

nebstrebor 13y ago

A few observations: 1) this isn't discrimination but it can encourage self-selection into or out of the group; 2) If tech firms, or a segment of the tech industry as a larger entity (e.g., rails, node, etc.) promote themselves, recruit, and try to be cool by sponsoring a bunch of drinking events, they'll attract programmers who like drinking events, and that will become part of the culture of the company and/or industry, since that's what brought them together, what they bonded over, and what they have in common outside of work. 3) There are other (a)venues to facilitate socialization (ice cream, coffee, etc.) including things like pizza or bowling where alcohol can be a part of it, but isn't the main event. Just like drinking, no one thing is for everyone, but that's ok. Consider it a venn diagram, where some in the industry seem to be only filling one circle.

ryanackley 13y ago

The irony is that by perpetuating stereotypes like "brogrammers", the author is actually encouraging a culture of exclusion. The meme can be a little funny but I find myself stopping and thinking. "Wait, I go to the gym, I have a social life, I occassionally go to bars, does that mean I'm a brogrammer?". The point of it is to ridicule certain behaviors in a social group (programmers). It says "if you don't fit my criteria for how a programmer should behave then you aren't one of us."

agentultra 13y ago

Drinking is everywhere. My father in law works in dental implants and he goes to conferences on cruise ships... which are all about drinking in between talks. You don't have to partake of course but there aren't many people who make that choice (he doesn't "get" drinking at all). I agree that keeping it out of the conference itinerary is probably best. I have only been to Pycon/PyconCA 2012, 2013 and will be speaking at 2014. I don't recall there being an official, sponsored event at a bar. There were provided areas for impromptu talk sessions and meetups (to hack or play board games or whatever). But overall it seemed like drinking was something that was scheduled unofficially for those interested in partaking after the day was over. It might help trying out different communities. I know in Toronto the Ruby group frequently meets up for... drinks [0]. And I worked for a company that sponsored a few javascript meetups... and provided drinks. At least in Toronto there's a strong link between the Ruby/JS community and going out for beers. The Python and Lisp groups tend to meetup at co-working spaces and cafes. [0] https://twitter.com/torontorb https://twitter.com/torontorb (just count the number of times "drinkup" is mentioned... I never even realized this was a thing until I read this article [1] http://createsend.com/t/j-72A1831D965A5352 http://createsend.com/t/j-72A1831D965A5352 One of many Toronto javascript events organized at a bar.

hajderr 13y ago

Spot on bro !