7 ms·

How to Apply to Y Combinator

201 points by pg 17y ago

kyro 17y ago
Great info. Thanks a lot for this, pg. You've pretty much told us exactly what you are and are not looking for in the application.
- icey 17y ago
  It will be great info for everyone who decides to read it and pay attention. I bet you that over 80% of the applications will still be garbage. Of course, I see this as a good thing for everyone who applies who has some clue as to what they're doing.
  - jacquesm 17y ago
    Are you privy to the applications ? 80% would seem to be a fairly high number. I think that there is a nice benefit from applying to YC for many small start-up companies, which is that for the first time (on that level of funding I'm assuming it's the first time) you have to get precise about stuff. So even if you do not get selected you're still going to be a big step further.
    - icey 17y ago
      I'm not privy to anything, as the only thing I have to do with YC is posting here. However, I acted as a technical adviser to some investors during the first dotcom boom in the 90s. Even in the face of specific requests, there were a shocking number of people who started their responses clearly intending to go into detail, and ending up with a heavy dose of hand-waving. Having since moved on, I still do hiring and see similar problems with people being unable to read and comprehend simple instructions. There is a shocking amount of _bad_ out there; it just gets worse when people are looking for money. As an aside, I was being generous with the 80% guess. Anywhere else I would have figured the garbage submissions to have crossed the 90% barrier.
      - LogicHoleFlaw 17y ago
        A friend of mine was a sound, power, and lighting technician for some pretty prestigious concert venues. According to him, the "green m&m clauses" of certain bands' touring agreements were a test specifically to see if someone from each venue had actually read the band's technical specification requirements. If you got to the concert location and the green m&ms were not ready, it was time to panic and start finding out where the power was going to cut out when you turned on all the kit...
staunch 17y ago
> Whereas if we can see obstacles to your idea that you don't seem to have considered, that's a bad sign. If I listed the top 10 actual obstacles for a given project I'd bet half of them would seem totally unintuitive. I'm skeptical of anyone (even other hackers) trying to judge the specific technical or business obstacles of something they don't know much about.
- pg 17y ago
  Yes, and in fact we look for that. We love it when people tell us things that are non-obvious. That's a sign they really understand the problem.
  - alain94040 17y ago
    The funny thing is that given the space allocated to cover all those scenarios, the applicant ends up in a situation very similar to game theory (a post yesterday on HN pops to mind). You, as the applicant, have to figure out what PG will consider non-obvious so you cover those, but keeping in mind that if there is anything obvious that PG would have thought you should cover, then you should cover those as well, but don't cover stuff that PG considers truly obvious and not worth covering... Just like game theory implies, winning at this game pretty much means that both you and PG are on the same wavelength (from a though-process point of view). Which sounds kind of obvious(), once I reach that conclusion. () extra credit will be given to people who cover the question of whether this post was useful from a game-theory standpoint. Was this post obvious in a useful way, or just plain obvious, or...?
    - pg 17y ago
      Actually there is a standard for non-obviousness: what's not obvious to your competitors. We have a question specifically about that. What do you understand about your business that other companies in it just don't get? The amusing thing is, this question turned out to be an instance of itself. Many of the YC clones who copied our application form cut this one, because its purpose wasn't obvious.
benreesman 17y ago
It seems to me that there is some very useful advice here for someone trying to write a resume, even if that wasn't the intended purpose of the posting.
pg 17y ago
If anyone has any questions I didn't answer, please ask them on this thread. I still consider this essay a draft; if anything important comes up here, I'll incorporate it in the next version.
- jacquesm 17y ago
  It seems to me that to have people make videos and then discard a lot of them without ever looking at them (which the text suggests is the case) would be a lot of wasted effort ?
  - Xichekolas 17y ago
    It scales better than only requesting videos from teams that are interesting. The latency involved with doing that would make the application selection process take a lot longer than it does to just ask everyone to send in a video to begin with.
  - kailoa 17y ago
    If I applied, I would definitely make a video, even if noone looks at. PG has mentioned multiple times that it's statistically helpful. If it comes down to you and some other guy who didn't make a video, I'm sure the extra effort is noticed. Sounds like a good risk/reward profile for my effort to me.
  - michaelfairley 17y ago
    The amount of effort that gets "wasted" per unwatched video is probably relatively small. Per the video instructions (http://ycombinator.com/video.html http://ycombinator.com/video.html), producing the video really shouldn't take much time at all (my guess is less than five minutes for a group that a) already has well defined goals and b) has a macbook, where there's almost no overhead to record a video). Additionally, the very act of making the video is likely beneficial to the groups, by forcing them to solidify their ideas enough to be comfortable talking about them and by having them practice giving an elevator pitch about their idea.
    - 17y ago
lacker 17y ago
It would be great to see previous successful applications, if they don't mind. (Unsuccessful ones would be interesting too but that might be weird for them.)
- minalecs 17y ago
  I agree this would be very helpful, but I imagine they're would be a lot of effort on censoring things like personal info, other ideas. I think for example I would like to read just how the successful ones described they're accepted ideas.
- iamwil 17y ago
  great for applicants, but not for the process overall. I imagine if you told people exactly what you're looking for, you'd only just get that from applicants. In essence, you'd have just diluted the power of your discriminator. What pg's doing here seemed mostly to tell applicants what not to do. He's trying to make his application process scale better, and to increase the signal to noise ratio on the good, but not obviously great teams.
- dhouston 17y ago
  Hopefully I won't feel stupid posting this, but I wished someone had done the same thing when I applied. (pg -- if you'd rather I not share this, feel free to delete) Original Dropbox YC app: http://files.getdropbox.com/u/2/app.html http://files.getdropbox.com/u/2/app.html Had to remove some names and one sensitive thing but otherwise unedited
  - nostrademons 17y ago
    You had applied earlier (SFP05?) and been rejected, right? If you don't mind, it'd be really interesting to see the earlier app too and compare what changed between them?
  - dbul 17y ago
    Even though I don't intend on reapplying, this was thought provoking; thanks. Why would your project be hard for someone else to duplicate? I think this is a critical question. Several weeks ago I was at a coffee shop and some girl was complaining to her friend about saving her data as they were leaving. Her friend said, "I just use DropBox." Had to smile as it was the first time I saw a (presumably) lay person mention a YC-funded company. It was nice to see an indication of such a breadth of success.
aberman 17y ago
"The first thing I notice when I look at an application is the username it was submitted under. If it's one I recognize for making thoughtful comments on Hacker News, I give the application extra attention." I was actually surprised by this. In retrospect, it makes perfect sense, but I would never have even thought of this.
deleted 17y ago
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bgnm2000 17y ago
Thanks pg! I was worried that entering too many secondary ideas would almost appear as a drawback. As if the team wasn't truly dedicated to the idea they were submitting the application for. Its nice to know the team itself is more important. Also, I'd love to know what percentage of teams have business people, rather than 100% hackers
- pg 17y ago
  Off the top of my head, I'd say 10-20% of groups have someone who's a pure business person, in the sense of not being able to program. More commonly there's one programmer who's more outgoing than the rest, and he or she does sales initially.
  - netsp 17y ago
    That's an interesting definition of a pure business person.
  - epkann 17y ago
    It's interesting that YCombinator, which values hackers so highly, included one pure business person (Jessica) among its four partners. Could you explain the reasoning behind that decision? What expertise did Jessica bring that Paul, Robert, and Trevor lack? More generally, when should founders consider bringing on a non-hacker as a co-founder?
    - pg 17y ago
      Jessica came from an investment bank. She deals with all the legal documents, gets startups incorporated, and so on. She also organizes all the events; we have a lot of those. At least, that's what we thought we were getting. She also turns out to be an extremely good judge of character, better than any of us. One of her nicknames is "the social radar."
      - messel 17y ago
        Some folks don't know how lucky they are at meeting the right people at the right time, but you don't sound like one of them Paul. It's hard finding folks to cover all the needs of an early business. I've written about coupling social media with relevant ads for months, so far I've only discovered one business type interested. I gave up and started coding it myself (very limited web programming, desktop c++ for a little under 14 years).
araneae 17y ago
On the other hand, maybe you don't want to help people submit better applications, because you can still only select a few of them. As the overall quality increases, it becomes more difficult to select between poor and high quality work. At least in the case of my intro bio students, essay 1 is always terrible and therefore easy to grade. I give them lots of tips, etc., for essay 2. The essays all improve, but I still have to assign the same mean grade so all their grades are the same. Basically it just makes my life harder.
- Xichekolas 17y ago
  I think you analogy with grading papers is flawed. Sure, it's easier to grade bad things than good things, because you don't have to look too deeply, but YC does not have to assign mean grades. They are reading in order to find useful information. If all applications become more concise and useful, that is a net gain, even if it makes the choice of who to interview less obvious.
  - araneae 17y ago
    It's not the analogy that's flawed at all. You admit that this might make that choice of who to interview less obvious, which is exactly my point. However, if the goal of teaching is to teach students, then obviously one should try to improve their writing! Similarly, as you point out, if the goal of YC is to find useful information, then of course they should provide this additional help. tl;dr: Of course, most intelligent people I know would have found everything in this link perfectly obvious. In this case, you'll fail to separate people with good projects and reading comprehension from people with good projects AND good business sense. It reminds me of applicants to our dorm (residents reviewed applications and rated them, which decided admission). It was easy to get into the dorm if you had any idea what the dorm was about. But some people just "didn't get it" and they were easy to pick out and rate poorly. (Bad application: I want to live here because I'm an architect and the architecture building) (Good application: I want to live here because I like getting naked in a kiddie pool in the middle of winter.)
    - deleted 17y ago
david927 17y ago
Isn't this also an admission that the application process is a bit broken? I think a lot of people would be open to submitting their application to others first, to help flesh out the weakpoints. On the menu bar, can we have "new", "threads", ..., and "YC applications"?
- pg 17y ago
  Yes, of course. All application processes are. But we're working hard to improve it. We tweak the process in some way almost every cycle. The idea of having everyone look at one another's application sounds like a minefield, though. Plus I don't want to clutter up HN with YC stuff. Only a minority of the users of this site are even interested in startups.
  - david927 17y ago
    I realized after I wrote that about twenty reasons why it's a bad idea. But I think some sort of Q&A could be invaluable, especially given the brevity the answers have to conform to and that knowing the right words is something that comes after a lot of baking with the idea. Without it, preference goes to ideas that can be conveyed clearly and simply at the expense of more complex ones. Would it be possible for the applicant to chose those HN users and YC alumni who have requested to view it? (With full comment threads and voting.)
andreyf 17y ago
I remember reading about a study which showed that, at least for certain companies, judging from first-decade performance, hiring based on interviews was less intelligent than hiring based purely on GPA [1]. The reasoning was that judgment during interviews is suceptible to various human biases to which GPA's are not. At least part of PG's reasoning seems susceptible to similar biases: for example, whether or not he recognizes a username might have a lot to do with how memorable the username is. I wonder if sorting users by a subset of their upvotes - say, those received from news.YC alumni - would make more sense in "highlighting" intelligent applicants. 1. Would appreciate if anyone who recognizes this links it for me.
- pg 17y ago
  We have lots of biases, but I don't think we're much influenced by how memorable usernames are. It's the comments that make a username memorable, not the name.
  - andreyf 17y ago
    I don't think we're much influenced by how memorable usernames are Well, by definition, biases aren't intuitively obvious. But I'd love to hear explicit introspection about this in the essay: what are your biases, and how do you eliminate their affecting your decisions?
    - pg 17y ago
      That's a question we think about a lot, because bias basically equals things we judge wrong. I like energetic founders, for example, but one wouldn't call that a "bias," because energetic founders are good. So what you're really asking is what makes us pick wrong, which is something we're constantly thinking about. When I pick wrong, it's often because the founders seem really nice. That's probably my biggest weakness. The other YC partners have it too. It's much harder to get funded by YC if you're an asshole. But who knows, maybe this is actually an advantage. It means the atmos within YC is really good. Everyone tends to trust one another. So maybe it's a win overall, even if it decreases returns in individual cases. It's a complicated problem.
benmathes 17y ago
As someone who interviews developer candidates, this is not just good advice for applying to YC, but to tech jobs in general. Putting bullshit on your resume in any form is the same thing as putting shit on your resume. As with all useful communication, you're limited. Cut to the essence.
thedob 17y ago
One thing that's confused me about the "Please tell us about the time you most successfully hacked some (non-computer) system to your advantage." question is the parenthesis. My guess is that they're included because you'll accept either a computer, or non-computer related example. If it's confused me, chances are it may confuse others as well.
- pg 17y ago
  The reason for "(non-computer)" is that we wanted to distinguish between hacking in the sense of programming, and hacking in the sense of beating the system.
  - sid 17y ago
    When i saw this question this is what i thought also. I was a tad unsure but when i put my application through in the next month or so i was going to discuss a general system known to everyone and how I was able to conduct myself to ensure that the system worked towards my advantage. I guess with your comments above paul, it is something along those lines that you are looking for. Thanks for clarification, oh and the initial question for that matter :)
  - smikhanov 17y ago
    "Beating the system" makes me think of rebellion. Is this really what you looking for in applicants? Does non-conformism really matter that much?
    - christonog 17y ago
      I think what pg means by this question is: "how resourceful are you in getting want you want/need?" I believe Entrepreneurs need to be creative and relentless in finding exactly what they need to succeed.
- leelin 17y ago
  The "non-computer" wording is still confusing. That seems to exclude hacks to computerized systems such as "Profited from eTrade being slow to patch the mutual fund market timing loopholes" or "Flipped laptops on eBay when lots of people used to spell it labtop."
Radix 17y ago
I like how PG coralled applicants. They shouldn't puff up their idea as they are the actual investment, but they shouldn't directly puff up themselves because that they should assume the investors will do it. All that is left to do is make an objective, consise description of their idea, its flaws, and their actions. Simple thoughts.
immigrant 17y ago
Would YC consider accepting founders who can't work full time on their idea? We have been working part time on our product for the last few months and will launch later this year. We don't expect to clear immigration hurdles till sometime in 2010. Does it make sense to apply?
- pg 17y ago
  Yes. There ought to be at least one person who will work on it full time in the fairly near future. You sound close enough.
mcotton 17y ago
How many repeat applications do you see? I am interested in applying and, likely, re-applying while I work on the idea. Is this common? Does it clutter the application process to see previously rejected applications again and again?
- pg 17y ago
  Quite a lot, and we sometimes fund them. It's only a problem to see an application again if it doesn't change.
dcurtis 17y ago
All of the things discussed in this essay are problems I see with product design as well. Lots of people ask me for advice, and the first thing I always tell them is to change the first sentence a user sees on the homepage from "Abstract technologies to help people live better." to "We make a database with a Wiki UI." This sort of thing fascinates me because the people I talk with who are clear and concise in the beginning are the same people who tend to succeed in the end. It is an amazingly good litmus test for finding good entrepreneurs.
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korch 17y ago
So let me get this straight--if you make it through the gauntlet of rather arbitrary, hype-driven judgements, you get a whopping $10k and you have to move to the Bay, which has among the highest real estate and cost of living in the country? How is this not a complete waste of time since it's so exploitive of developers? Oh, that's right, being part of the startup-hype bubble machine entitles you to a magic wand that allows you to step beyond economic reality. Wave the wand, voila! we're so awesome, we're the next Google, we might as well print our own money! If you're a good developer, you'd probably do better soliciting micro-loans through paypal and Prosper. I suspect any developer who has another option takes it. I myself have several modest software ideas I've been kicking around for two years that might have a small chance for making a good startup. But being paid a subsistence wage, even as an alpha-stage startup, is worse than just keeping the ol'day job and pushing the prototypes as a hobby. Y-Combinator seems to be more for high school and college kids along the lines of Google's annual summer of code.
- nicara 17y ago
  Most of the value in YC comes from meeting interesting (read: influential) people, learning a thing or two, and, seeing how important it is to know people to get a job, networking - surely it can't hurt to know people if you're running your own business, I'd even go as far and say it's more important than if you were just on the lookout for a regular job. It's not really about the money.
- wmf 17y ago
  This has been covered before, but maybe you didn't see it: YC is about the advice, not the money. And originally it was targeted at college kids, for whom the restrictions aren't that restrictive.
- netsp 17y ago
  I don't understand this approach to criticism. You are saying that the cost/benefit equation doesn't makes sense. OK. This has been discussed before and you can expect get the same responses you have heard before and found unconvincing. If you do not think that doing these things (full time startup, moving, taking investment, etc.) are a good idea generally, it can easily follow that YC is a bad idea. Then you seem to take this in a silly direction. You imply that everyone else (or at least most other competent people) will agree with you. That is evidently not true. People apply. Out of those, some are competent and ultimately successful. Obviously the cost/benefit equation made sense to them.
yumraj 17y ago
How about someone who needs guidance more than money. Like, someone who is currently employed and wants to do something on the side till it makes sense to go solo and maybe would need funding at that point. Would YC be interested/willing to consider this model and engage with such founder(s) to help review ideas, business models etc.?
- pg 17y ago
  What would have to change for it to make sense to go solo?
  - brlewis 17y ago
    Since the OP hasn't replied yet, I'll chime in with an example: Suppose his is the sole income supporting a family of 5, and he needs financial resources to feed, clothe, house, educate, and entertain 5x as many people as the typical YC founder. What would have to change would be the availability of said resources.
  - yumraj 17y ago
    brlewis is close, I will add mortgage :). I can live on a Ramen-diet (I prefer cereal though), but not everyone is in(or just out of) college. The process I'm envisioning is: 1) YC helps founders in this situation vet their ideas, possibly get in touch with others in similar situation and form teams (if needed). 2) YC obviously takes a small stake, but not necessarily puts any real money (or puts just some money). 3) Teams build whatever they are building. Yes, these teams will take longer than dedicated teams. 4) YC helps along with guidance. 5) Once the product is beginning to take shape, founders quit their jobs and try to get funding and launch venture. I know it will be argued that in this case I'm just trying to have my cake and eat it too, but I don't think what I'm suggesting is totally unreasonable.
- rms 17y ago
  Check out the program run by The Funded. I think they are probably the only program out there for very early stage companies that really lets you keep your day job. http://www.founderinstitute.com/ http://www.founderinstitute.com/
newsio 17y ago
I read this, and I like your thinking about the types of people you are looking for. But I have to say: You're asking for clarity, want applicants to avoid unnecessary or confusing language, etc. Why not practice what you preach? Why not include some of the "read between the lines" bits in your essay ("If this wasn't already clear, we're not looking for the sort of obedient, middle-of-the-road people that big companies tend to hire. We're looking for people who like to beat the system") and copy and paste them directly into the application form? It will make your life easier, and it will make it easier for YC applicants who are struggling with the process. Judging by the fact that you had to write this essay, people obviously don't know what you want.
Mz 17y ago
Suggestion: Add a word counter to the application to help people keep it under 120. (Or tell me how to use it if it is there already. :-) )
skywalker 17y ago
PG, please tell us about the time you most successfully hacked some (non-computer) system to your advantage.
- rms 17y ago
  http://ycombinator.com http://ycombinator.com?
  - skywalker 17y ago
    YC is pretty recent and he did it in his forties. I was thinking about what he did when he was younger, just like the situation of someone that would apply to YC.
  - Jimmy 17y ago
    I think that would count as a computer system.
    - eru 17y ago
      It's not the website. It's hacking the startup eco-system.
- pg 17y ago
  One day in grad school my advisor unexpectedly said something along the lines of "so, are you nearly done with your dissertation?" I was nowhere near done. But, keeping calm, I replied that yes, while I had a few things to finish up, I thought I should be done in time to graduate that June. Then I went back to my office and started writing as fast as I could. I finished about a day before the deadline. The result was not particularly good, but it got me out of grad school, which was all I wanted at the time.
jacoblyles 17y ago
You get what you measure. The application selects for the ability to communicate in pithy statements. Fortunately, this is likely to be somewhat correlated with intelligence. Unfortunately, there are no obviously better methodologies.
terpua 17y ago
Would you consider a competitor to an already YC-backed startup?
- pg 17y ago
  Probably. We're going to have to face this eventually. Plus any sufficiently rich market probably has room for several permutations.
  - fallentimes 17y ago
    Like photos?
    - brlewis 17y ago
      Or words, or anything else that can be used in a variety of ways. See real-user discussion here: http://friendfeed.com/seemsartless/d4728c4a/saturday-june-27-2009 http://friendfeed.com/seemsartless/d4728c4a/saturday-june-27...
zaidf 17y ago
Please tell us about the time you most successfully hacked some (non-computer) system to your advantage. What if it was potentially criminal? Would you still want to know:)?
pclark 17y ago
I never know what to write about unfair advantages or "why can only you guys do this"
pegobry 17y ago
Re: describing your product matter-of-factly instead of grandiosely. At a Startup School, Greg McAdoo of Sequoia described how they wanted each company to have a one-sentence masterplan and described how they made Cisco change their self-description from "We make boxen that do X,Y,Z" to "Cisco Systems networks networks". If you're applying to be the next Google and most importantly if you guys look for the next Google, I think that sort of implies that the founders have some grand vision for the future of the company and that's the thing they'd want to put forward -- and that you'd want to see put forward so that you're confident they can be the next Google. I guess what I'm asking is, would it have been better for 1976 Apple to apply saying "We sell a neat microcomputer kit for $666" or "We want usher in a technological revolution by making computers so darn pretty and easy to use that everyone will buy one"? The former is more accurate, but it's the latter that really represents what the company is about and what its potential is.
Ardit20 17y ago
So if the applicant is completely open about their idea and tells you everything, projected data, perhaps past or present data also, fully lay out the idea, how it would work, marketing, everything basically, what is there stopping you from simply executing this idea yourself?
messel 17y ago
Maybe because I'm a little older I'm confused on this one Paul. Why so much competition for 20k? Why are young founders racing to give away up to 10% of their business for such a small amount of capital? I can see the value of the YC network and that's worth a lot to me right now. But rent and fast food money for 3 months seems a little low of a reward on "winning" applications. Is the success rate of YC founders low? (success measured as sustainable/viable business in 5 years or a liquidity event)
- messel 17y ago
  I found a good answer on this nest of a comment page: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=715530 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=715530

201 points by pg 17y ago

kyro 17y ago

Great info. Thanks a lot for this, pg. You've pretty much told us exactly what you are and are not looking for in the application.

icey 17y ago
It will be great info for everyone who decides to read it and pay attention. I bet you that over 80% of the applications will still be garbage. Of course, I see this as a good thing for everyone who applies who has some clue as to what they're doing.
- jacquesm 17y ago
  Are you privy to the applications ? 80% would seem to be a fairly high number. I think that there is a nice benefit from applying to YC for many small start-up companies, which is that for the first time (on that level of funding I'm assuming it's the first time) you have to get precise about stuff. So even if you do not get selected you're still going to be a big step further.
  - icey 17y ago
    I'm not privy to anything, as the only thing I have to do with YC is posting here. However, I acted as a technical adviser to some investors during the first dotcom boom in the 90s. Even in the face of specific requests, there were a shocking number of people who started their responses clearly intending to go into detail, and ending up with a heavy dose of hand-waving. Having since moved on, I still do hiring and see similar problems with people being unable to read and comprehend simple instructions. There is a shocking amount of _bad_ out there; it just gets worse when people are looking for money. As an aside, I was being generous with the 80% guess. Anywhere else I would have figured the garbage submissions to have crossed the 90% barrier.
    - LogicHoleFlaw 17y ago
      A friend of mine was a sound, power, and lighting technician for some pretty prestigious concert venues. According to him, the "green m&m clauses" of certain bands' touring agreements were a test specifically to see if someone from each venue had actually read the band's technical specification requirements. If you got to the concert location and the green m&ms were not ready, it was time to panic and start finding out where the power was going to cut out when you turned on all the kit...

staunch 17y ago

> Whereas if we can see obstacles to your idea that you don't seem to have considered, that's a bad sign. If I listed the top 10 actual obstacles for a given project I'd bet half of them would seem totally unintuitive. I'm skeptical of anyone (even other hackers) trying to judge the specific technical or business obstacles of something they don't know much about.

pg 17y ago
Yes, and in fact we look for that. We love it when people tell us things that are non-obvious. That's a sign they really understand the problem.
- alain94040 17y ago
  The funny thing is that given the space allocated to cover all those scenarios, the applicant ends up in a situation very similar to game theory (a post yesterday on HN pops to mind). You, as the applicant, have to figure out what PG will consider non-obvious so you cover those, but keeping in mind that if there is anything obvious that PG would have thought you should cover, then you should cover those as well, but don't cover stuff that PG considers truly obvious and not worth covering... Just like game theory implies, winning at this game pretty much means that both you and PG are on the same wavelength (from a though-process point of view). Which sounds kind of obvious(), once I reach that conclusion. () extra credit will be given to people who cover the question of whether this post was useful from a game-theory standpoint. Was this post obvious in a useful way, or just plain obvious, or...?
  - pg 17y ago
    Actually there is a standard for non-obviousness: what's not obvious to your competitors. We have a question specifically about that. What do you understand about your business that other companies in it just don't get? The amusing thing is, this question turned out to be an instance of itself. Many of the YC clones who copied our application form cut this one, because its purpose wasn't obvious.

benreesman 17y ago

It seems to me that there is some very useful advice here for someone trying to write a resume, even if that wasn't the intended purpose of the posting.

pg 17y ago

If anyone has any questions I didn't answer, please ask them on this thread. I still consider this essay a draft; if anything important comes up here, I'll incorporate it in the next version.

jacquesm 17y ago
It seems to me that to have people make videos and then discard a lot of them without ever looking at them (which the text suggests is the case) would be a lot of wasted effort ?
- Xichekolas 17y ago
  It scales better than only requesting videos from teams that are interesting. The latency involved with doing that would make the application selection process take a lot longer than it does to just ask everyone to send in a video to begin with.
- kailoa 17y ago
  If I applied, I would definitely make a video, even if noone looks at. PG has mentioned multiple times that it's statistically helpful. If it comes down to you and some other guy who didn't make a video, I'm sure the extra effort is noticed. Sounds like a good risk/reward profile for my effort to me.
- michaelfairley 17y ago
  The amount of effort that gets "wasted" per unwatched video is probably relatively small. Per the video instructions (http://ycombinator.com/video.html http://ycombinator.com/video.html), producing the video really shouldn't take much time at all (my guess is less than five minutes for a group that a) already has well defined goals and b) has a macbook, where there's almost no overhead to record a video). Additionally, the very act of making the video is likely beneficial to the groups, by forcing them to solidify their ideas enough to be comfortable talking about them and by having them practice giving an elevator pitch about their idea.
  - 17y ago

lacker 17y ago

It would be great to see previous successful applications, if they don't mind. (Unsuccessful ones would be interesting too but that might be weird for them.)

minalecs 17y ago
I agree this would be very helpful, but I imagine they're would be a lot of effort on censoring things like personal info, other ideas. I think for example I would like to read just how the successful ones described they're accepted ideas.
iamwil 17y ago
great for applicants, but not for the process overall. I imagine if you told people exactly what you're looking for, you'd only just get that from applicants. In essence, you'd have just diluted the power of your discriminator. What pg's doing here seemed mostly to tell applicants what not to do. He's trying to make his application process scale better, and to increase the signal to noise ratio on the good, but not obviously great teams.
dhouston 17y ago
Hopefully I won't feel stupid posting this, but I wished someone had done the same thing when I applied. (pg -- if you'd rather I not share this, feel free to delete) Original Dropbox YC app: http://files.getdropbox.com/u/2/app.html http://files.getdropbox.com/u/2/app.html Had to remove some names and one sensitive thing but otherwise unedited
- nostrademons 17y ago
  You had applied earlier (SFP05?) and been rejected, right? If you don't mind, it'd be really interesting to see the earlier app too and compare what changed between them?
- dbul 17y ago
  Even though I don't intend on reapplying, this was thought provoking; thanks. Why would your project be hard for someone else to duplicate? I think this is a critical question. Several weeks ago I was at a coffee shop and some girl was complaining to her friend about saving her data as they were leaving. Her friend said, "I just use DropBox." Had to smile as it was the first time I saw a (presumably) lay person mention a YC-funded company. It was nice to see an indication of such a breadth of success.

aberman 17y ago

"The first thing I notice when I look at an application is the username it was submitted under. If it's one I recognize for making thoughtful comments on Hacker News, I give the application extra attention." I was actually surprised by this. In retrospect, it makes perfect sense, but I would never have even thought of this.

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bgnm2000 17y ago

Thanks pg! I was worried that entering too many secondary ideas would almost appear as a drawback. As if the team wasn't truly dedicated to the idea they were submitting the application for. Its nice to know the team itself is more important. Also, I'd love to know what percentage of teams have business people, rather than 100% hackers

pg 17y ago
Off the top of my head, I'd say 10-20% of groups have someone who's a pure business person, in the sense of not being able to program. More commonly there's one programmer who's more outgoing than the rest, and he or she does sales initially.
- netsp 17y ago
  That's an interesting definition of a pure business person.
- epkann 17y ago
  It's interesting that YCombinator, which values hackers so highly, included one pure business person (Jessica) among its four partners. Could you explain the reasoning behind that decision? What expertise did Jessica bring that Paul, Robert, and Trevor lack? More generally, when should founders consider bringing on a non-hacker as a co-founder?
  - pg 17y ago
    Jessica came from an investment bank. She deals with all the legal documents, gets startups incorporated, and so on. She also organizes all the events; we have a lot of those. At least, that's what we thought we were getting. She also turns out to be an extremely good judge of character, better than any of us. One of her nicknames is "the social radar."
    - messel 17y ago
      Some folks don't know how lucky they are at meeting the right people at the right time, but you don't sound like one of them Paul. It's hard finding folks to cover all the needs of an early business. I've written about coupling social media with relevant ads for months, so far I've only discovered one business type interested. I gave up and started coding it myself (very limited web programming, desktop c++ for a little under 14 years).

araneae 17y ago

On the other hand, maybe you don't want to help people submit better applications, because you can still only select a few of them. As the overall quality increases, it becomes more difficult to select between poor and high quality work. At least in the case of my intro bio students, essay 1 is always terrible and therefore easy to grade. I give them lots of tips, etc., for essay 2. The essays all improve, but I still have to assign the same mean grade so all their grades are the same. Basically it just makes my life harder.

Xichekolas 17y ago
I think you analogy with grading papers is flawed. Sure, it's easier to grade bad things than good things, because you don't have to look too deeply, but YC does not have to assign mean grades. They are reading in order to find useful information. If all applications become more concise and useful, that is a net gain, even if it makes the choice of who to interview less obvious.
- araneae 17y ago
  It's not the analogy that's flawed at all. You admit that this might make that choice of who to interview less obvious, which is exactly my point. However, if the goal of teaching is to teach students, then obviously one should try to improve their writing! Similarly, as you point out, if the goal of YC is to find useful information, then of course they should provide this additional help. tl;dr: Of course, most intelligent people I know would have found everything in this link perfectly obvious. In this case, you'll fail to separate people with good projects and reading comprehension from people with good projects AND good business sense. It reminds me of applicants to our dorm (residents reviewed applications and rated them, which decided admission). It was easy to get into the dorm if you had any idea what the dorm was about. But some people just "didn't get it" and they were easy to pick out and rate poorly. (Bad application: I want to live here because I'm an architect and the architecture building) (Good application: I want to live here because I like getting naked in a kiddie pool in the middle of winter.)
  - deleted 17y ago

david927 17y ago

Isn't this also an admission that the application process is a bit broken? I think a lot of people would be open to submitting their application to others first, to help flesh out the weakpoints. On the menu bar, can we have "new", "threads", ..., and "YC applications"?

pg 17y ago
Yes, of course. All application processes are. But we're working hard to improve it. We tweak the process in some way almost every cycle. The idea of having everyone look at one another's application sounds like a minefield, though. Plus I don't want to clutter up HN with YC stuff. Only a minority of the users of this site are even interested in startups.
- david927 17y ago
  I realized after I wrote that about twenty reasons why it's a bad idea. But I think some sort of Q&A could be invaluable, especially given the brevity the answers have to conform to and that knowing the right words is something that comes after a lot of baking with the idea. Without it, preference goes to ideas that can be conveyed clearly and simply at the expense of more complex ones. Would it be possible for the applicant to chose those HN users and YC alumni who have requested to view it? (With full comment threads and voting.)

andreyf 17y ago

I remember reading about a study which showed that, at least for certain companies, judging from first-decade performance, hiring based on interviews was less intelligent than hiring based purely on GPA [1]. The reasoning was that judgment during interviews is suceptible to various human biases to which GPA's are not. At least part of PG's reasoning seems susceptible to similar biases: for example, whether or not he recognizes a username might have a lot to do with how memorable the username is. I wonder if sorting users by a subset of their upvotes - say, those received from news.YC alumni - would make more sense in "highlighting" intelligent applicants. 1. Would appreciate if anyone who recognizes this links it for me.

pg 17y ago
We have lots of biases, but I don't think we're much influenced by how memorable usernames are. It's the comments that make a username memorable, not the name.
- andreyf 17y ago
  I don't think we're much influenced by how memorable usernames are Well, by definition, biases aren't intuitively obvious. But I'd love to hear explicit introspection about this in the essay: what are your biases, and how do you eliminate their affecting your decisions?
  - pg 17y ago
    That's a question we think about a lot, because bias basically equals things we judge wrong. I like energetic founders, for example, but one wouldn't call that a "bias," because energetic founders are good. So what you're really asking is what makes us pick wrong, which is something we're constantly thinking about. When I pick wrong, it's often because the founders seem really nice. That's probably my biggest weakness. The other YC partners have it too. It's much harder to get funded by YC if you're an asshole. But who knows, maybe this is actually an advantage. It means the atmos within YC is really good. Everyone tends to trust one another. So maybe it's a win overall, even if it decreases returns in individual cases. It's a complicated problem.

benmathes 17y ago

As someone who interviews developer candidates, this is not just good advice for applying to YC, but to tech jobs in general. Putting bullshit on your resume in any form is the same thing as putting shit on your resume. As with all useful communication, you're limited. Cut to the essence.

thedob 17y ago

One thing that's confused me about the "Please tell us about the time you most successfully hacked some (non-computer) system to your advantage." question is the parenthesis. My guess is that they're included because you'll accept either a computer, or non-computer related example. If it's confused me, chances are it may confuse others as well.

pg 17y ago
The reason for "(non-computer)" is that we wanted to distinguish between hacking in the sense of programming, and hacking in the sense of beating the system.
- sid 17y ago
  When i saw this question this is what i thought also. I was a tad unsure but when i put my application through in the next month or so i was going to discuss a general system known to everyone and how I was able to conduct myself to ensure that the system worked towards my advantage. I guess with your comments above paul, it is something along those lines that you are looking for. Thanks for clarification, oh and the initial question for that matter :)
- smikhanov 17y ago
  "Beating the system" makes me think of rebellion. Is this really what you looking for in applicants? Does non-conformism really matter that much?
  - christonog 17y ago
    I think what pg means by this question is: "how resourceful are you in getting want you want/need?" I believe Entrepreneurs need to be creative and relentless in finding exactly what they need to succeed.
leelin 17y ago
The "non-computer" wording is still confusing. That seems to exclude hacks to computerized systems such as "Profited from eTrade being slow to patch the mutual fund market timing loopholes" or "Flipped laptops on eBay when lots of people used to spell it labtop."

Radix 17y ago

I like how PG coralled applicants. They shouldn't puff up their idea as they are the actual investment, but they shouldn't directly puff up themselves because that they should assume the investors will do it. All that is left to do is make an objective, consise description of their idea, its flaws, and their actions. Simple thoughts.

immigrant 17y ago

Would YC consider accepting founders who can't work full time on their idea? We have been working part time on our product for the last few months and will launch later this year. We don't expect to clear immigration hurdles till sometime in 2010. Does it make sense to apply?

pg 17y ago
Yes. There ought to be at least one person who will work on it full time in the fairly near future. You sound close enough.

mcotton 17y ago

How many repeat applications do you see? I am interested in applying and, likely, re-applying while I work on the idea. Is this common? Does it clutter the application process to see previously rejected applications again and again?

pg 17y ago
Quite a lot, and we sometimes fund them. It's only a problem to see an application again if it doesn't change.

dcurtis 17y ago

All of the things discussed in this essay are problems I see with product design as well. Lots of people ask me for advice, and the first thing I always tell them is to change the first sentence a user sees on the homepage from "Abstract technologies to help people live better." to "We make a database with a Wiki UI." This sort of thing fascinates me because the people I talk with who are clear and concise in the beginning are the same people who tend to succeed in the end. It is an amazingly good litmus test for finding good entrepreneurs.

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korch 17y ago

So let me get this straight--if you make it through the gauntlet of rather arbitrary, hype-driven judgements, you get a whopping $10k and you have to move to the Bay, which has among the highest real estate and cost of living in the country? How is this not a complete waste of time since it's so exploitive of developers? Oh, that's right, being part of the startup-hype bubble machine entitles you to a magic wand that allows you to step beyond economic reality. Wave the wand, voila! we're so awesome, we're the next Google, we might as well print our own money! If you're a good developer, you'd probably do better soliciting micro-loans through paypal and Prosper. I suspect any developer who has another option takes it. I myself have several modest software ideas I've been kicking around for two years that might have a small chance for making a good startup. But being paid a subsistence wage, even as an alpha-stage startup, is worse than just keeping the ol'day job and pushing the prototypes as a hobby. Y-Combinator seems to be more for high school and college kids along the lines of Google's annual summer of code.

nicara 17y ago
Most of the value in YC comes from meeting interesting (read: influential) people, learning a thing or two, and, seeing how important it is to know people to get a job, networking - surely it can't hurt to know people if you're running your own business, I'd even go as far and say it's more important than if you were just on the lookout for a regular job. It's not really about the money.
wmf 17y ago
This has been covered before, but maybe you didn't see it: YC is about the advice, not the money. And originally it was targeted at college kids, for whom the restrictions aren't that restrictive.
netsp 17y ago
I don't understand this approach to criticism. You are saying that the cost/benefit equation doesn't makes sense. OK. This has been discussed before and you can expect get the same responses you have heard before and found unconvincing. If you do not think that doing these things (full time startup, moving, taking investment, etc.) are a good idea generally, it can easily follow that YC is a bad idea. Then you seem to take this in a silly direction. You imply that everyone else (or at least most other competent people) will agree with you. That is evidently not true. People apply. Out of those, some are competent and ultimately successful. Obviously the cost/benefit equation made sense to them.

yumraj 17y ago

How about someone who needs guidance more than money. Like, someone who is currently employed and wants to do something on the side till it makes sense to go solo and maybe would need funding at that point. Would YC be interested/willing to consider this model and engage with such founder(s) to help review ideas, business models etc.?

pg 17y ago
What would have to change for it to make sense to go solo?
- brlewis 17y ago
  Since the OP hasn't replied yet, I'll chime in with an example: Suppose his is the sole income supporting a family of 5, and he needs financial resources to feed, clothe, house, educate, and entertain 5x as many people as the typical YC founder. What would have to change would be the availability of said resources.
- yumraj 17y ago
  brlewis is close, I will add mortgage :). I can live on a Ramen-diet (I prefer cereal though), but not everyone is in(or just out of) college. The process I'm envisioning is: 1) YC helps founders in this situation vet their ideas, possibly get in touch with others in similar situation and form teams (if needed). 2) YC obviously takes a small stake, but not necessarily puts any real money (or puts just some money). 3) Teams build whatever they are building. Yes, these teams will take longer than dedicated teams. 4) YC helps along with guidance. 5) Once the product is beginning to take shape, founders quit their jobs and try to get funding and launch venture. I know it will be argued that in this case I'm just trying to have my cake and eat it too, but I don't think what I'm suggesting is totally unreasonable.
rms 17y ago
Check out the program run by The Funded. I think they are probably the only program out there for very early stage companies that really lets you keep your day job. http://www.founderinstitute.com/ http://www.founderinstitute.com/

newsio 17y ago

I read this, and I like your thinking about the types of people you are looking for. But I have to say: You're asking for clarity, want applicants to avoid unnecessary or confusing language, etc. Why not practice what you preach? Why not include some of the "read between the lines" bits in your essay ("If this wasn't already clear, we're not looking for the sort of obedient, middle-of-the-road people that big companies tend to hire. We're looking for people who like to beat the system") and copy and paste them directly into the application form? It will make your life easier, and it will make it easier for YC applicants who are struggling with the process. Judging by the fact that you had to write this essay, people obviously don't know what you want.

Mz 17y ago

Suggestion: Add a word counter to the application to help people keep it under 120. (Or tell me how to use it if it is there already. :-) )

skywalker 17y ago

PG, please tell us about the time you most successfully hacked some (non-computer) system to your advantage.

rms 17y ago
http://ycombinator.com http://ycombinator.com?
- skywalker 17y ago
  YC is pretty recent and he did it in his forties. I was thinking about what he did when he was younger, just like the situation of someone that would apply to YC.
- Jimmy 17y ago
  I think that would count as a computer system.
  - eru 17y ago
    It's not the website. It's hacking the startup eco-system.
pg 17y ago
One day in grad school my advisor unexpectedly said something along the lines of "so, are you nearly done with your dissertation?" I was nowhere near done. But, keeping calm, I replied that yes, while I had a few things to finish up, I thought I should be done in time to graduate that June. Then I went back to my office and started writing as fast as I could. I finished about a day before the deadline. The result was not particularly good, but it got me out of grad school, which was all I wanted at the time.

jacoblyles 17y ago

You get what you measure. The application selects for the ability to communicate in pithy statements. Fortunately, this is likely to be somewhat correlated with intelligence. Unfortunately, there are no obviously better methodologies.

terpua 17y ago

Would you consider a competitor to an already YC-backed startup?

pg 17y ago
Probably. We're going to have to face this eventually. Plus any sufficiently rich market probably has room for several permutations.
- fallentimes 17y ago
  Like photos?
  - brlewis 17y ago
    Or words, or anything else that can be used in a variety of ways. See real-user discussion here: http://friendfeed.com/seemsartless/d4728c4a/saturday-june-27-2009 http://friendfeed.com/seemsartless/d4728c4a/saturday-june-27...

zaidf 17y ago

Please tell us about the time you most successfully hacked some (non-computer) system to your advantage. What if it was potentially criminal? Would you still want to know:)?

pclark 17y ago

I never know what to write about unfair advantages or "why can only you guys do this"

pegobry 17y ago

Re: describing your product matter-of-factly instead of grandiosely. At a Startup School, Greg McAdoo of Sequoia described how they wanted each company to have a one-sentence masterplan and described how they made Cisco change their self-description from "We make boxen that do X,Y,Z" to "Cisco Systems networks networks". If you're applying to be the next Google and most importantly if you guys look for the next Google, I think that sort of implies that the founders have some grand vision for the future of the company and that's the thing they'd want to put forward -- and that you'd want to see put forward so that you're confident they can be the next Google. I guess what I'm asking is, would it have been better for 1976 Apple to apply saying "We sell a neat microcomputer kit for $666" or "We want usher in a technological revolution by making computers so darn pretty and easy to use that everyone will buy one"? The former is more accurate, but it's the latter that really represents what the company is about and what its potential is.

Ardit20 17y ago

So if the applicant is completely open about their idea and tells you everything, projected data, perhaps past or present data also, fully lay out the idea, how it would work, marketing, everything basically, what is there stopping you from simply executing this idea yourself?

messel 17y ago

Maybe because I'm a little older I'm confused on this one Paul. Why so much competition for 20k? Why are young founders racing to give away up to 10% of their business for such a small amount of capital? I can see the value of the YC network and that's worth a lot to me right now. But rent and fast food money for 3 months seems a little low of a reward on "winning" applications. Is the success rate of YC founders low? (success measured as sustainable/viable business in 5 years or a liquidity event)

messel 17y ago
I found a good answer on this nest of a comment page: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=715530 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=715530