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In normal countries neighbourhoods have cafes where people go. In America they have McDonalds, and after sitting 20 minutes in there management calls the cops.

In normal countries neighbourhoods have cafes where people go. In America they have McDonalds, and after sitting 20 minutes in there management calls the cops. There's an environment ripe for disruption. Disruption includes attitude of the locals, who will fight tooth and nail against any new establishment.

kylec 13y ago
I've never been kicked out of a McDonald's for staying more than 20 minutes. The rule was likely created because large quantities of low- or non-paying people were inhabiting the space for long amounts of time, driving paying customers elsewhere. I don't blame the owners of this McDonald's for instituting a time limit, and I suspect that even if this happened in another country the business owner would likely do the same. I'm also sure McDonald's would welcome another entrant to "disrupt" the space and get them out of their establishment.
jbigelow76 13y ago
>There's an environment ripe for disruption. Being able to idle away hours while purchasing next to nothing without getting harassed and chased off was a problem "disrupted" long ago. The answer is parks, libraries, rec centers and for the right demographic retirement centers.
- GFischer 13y ago
  Both parks and libraries are not ideal year-round, especially for the elderly. I agree that there has to be some sort of disruption, especially since the trend signals towards a lot more elderly and other people with idle time. Maybe some civic-minded startup, NGO or other kind of nonprofit. I hope someone wealthy funds such ideas, I'm annoyed that at least in my country much of those services are hijacked by "churches" that are very opaquely run, but give people a sense of community and things to do. I hope for similar secular services (think televangelists). Example (in Spanish): http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/H%C3%A9ctor_An%C3%ADbal_Gim%C3%A9nez http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/H%C3%A9ctor_An%C3%ADbal_Gim%C3%...
  - jbigelow76 13y ago
    What is wrong with libraries? Or VFW halls, Shriners/ELKs/etc halls, rotary clubs, bingo halls, the food court of a shopping mall. I'm not a religious person either but like you pointed out many churches provide space to solve this sort of problem. There actually are a lot of options, for those willing to compromise at least a little.
    - dba7dba 13y ago
      The seniors mentioned in the article live within TWO blocks of the McD.
      - jbigelow76 13y ago
        I did see that. I read the first article too. What these seniors would require for an adequate "disruption" would be: <= 2 blocks from home Bathroom facilities Enough room for tables and chairs to accommodate ~5-15 people Free or close to it Completely enclosed, some form of A/C preferred All that in a high density/high land value urban area. Like the old song goes, something's gotta give.
    - GFischer 13y ago
      You pointed out several good options actually :) . I want to see more of those in my country, some just don't exist (cultural differences), I don't know about that particular place (Queens).
- rodgerd 13y ago
  You mean the libraries whose funding seems to be steadily under attack in the UK and US? And I don't know about your neck of the woods, but in mine green belts and public parks are under costant seige from "developers" who want to privatise them. (That said, good luck to the GP's business disruption plan which will involve paying a lot of money for renting or owning real estate in the most expensive places on the planet, in order to let people who don't want to buy anything use it.)
  - jbigelow76 13y ago
    Seniors are one of the most reliable demographics that turns out to vote[1]. If Libraries became an attractive meeting place for them they could probably exert enough pressure, particularly at the municipal level, to ensure libraries remain adequately budgeted. [1] http://www.census.gov/compendia/statab/2012/tables/12s0399.pdf http://www.census.gov/compendia/statab/2012/tables/12s0399.p...
skannamalai 13y ago
We have cafes and other neighborhood establishments here as well. But I appreciate that fact doesn't serve your sense of self-superiority.
stephencanon 13y ago
Interesting that you think this. My father eats lunch at McDonalds pretty frequently, and tends to stay for a couple hours reading the paper or taking advantage of the free wifi. There are people who go in to use the free wifi and don’t buy anything; nobody bothers them. When I was last in France, teenagers could often be found studying in McDonalds, because unlike the french cafes, they don’t get kicked out of McDonalds for buying some fries and a coke and then holding the table for a couple hours. Personally, I have no fondness for McDonalds at all, but your claim that they have some sort of corporate policy of not letting people linger seems spurious to me.
- pickleport 13y ago
  It doesn't say whether it's a corporate policy, but it is in the first line of the article. > The kerfuffle started when word spread that the police were repeatedly evicting elderly Korean patrons from a McDonald’s in Queens. The Koreans have been milking their stays over $1.09 coffees, violating the restaurant’s 20-minute dining limit.
  - 001sky 13y ago
    That 20 minute policy is the source of the story. For years, that same franchise location did not have this policy in place. The coroporate parent does not have a uniform policy, it is up to the individual owners/franchisees. McD's parent company is familiar with the issue, however, as seen by the evolution of its architectural themes.
  - cosmie 13y ago
    It's not a corporate policy. I've personally had hours-long study sessions at McDonalds restaurants with just a drink purchase. The article also mentions a group of women taking up an 8-person sitting area for hours at a time, nursing a single $1 coffee. For a four hour visit, this averages ~$0.03/seat/hr in revenue. These customers aren't truly dining, they're just congregating under the pretext of dining (by buying the minimal amount possible). _This_ is the type of behavior that would drive an individual store into implementing a 20-minute dining limit. Chances are it's loosely enforced for actual dining customers, but provides the necessary pretext for booting these people when the lunch rush begins and actual dining customers need somewhere to dine. If customers come to eat and can't find anywhere to sit, they'll start going elsewhere for food and the store will see a noticeable decline in revenue. While it sounds harsh, a restaurant is a business that makes money by selling food. The dining area is meant for dining. Systematically abusing it for congregating, while providing marginally little revenue, is going to result in limitations being erected to discourage such behavior. Coffee shops do the same thing with time limits on wifi, which is a limitation that works well to discourage their typical customer base. This crowd is just in it for the space, so the limitation invoked in this case is a time limit on the space itself.
bananacurve 13y ago
From the article: >There are scores of fast-food outlets, bakeries and cafes near Main Street, a half-mile away. Too busy feeling smug to read the god damn article?
Mikeb85 13y ago
> There's an environment ripe for disruption. Hah, good luck with a business in which your plan is to allow people to linger for hours after a $1 purchase. Cafés tolerate lingering only as long as you regularly purchase a worthwhile amount of their product (ie. buy a $5 coffee every day, maybe a sandwich and pastry, etc...). Furthermore, McDonald's restaurants are franchises, which means each location has a different owner, usually someone who's clawed their way into the middle class and saved up some money to start a business. Not the corporate fat-cats that no doubt come to mind when thinking of McDonald's. It's not like a location with adequate seating and business can make up lost revenues for another location.
- learc83 13y ago
  >usually someone who's clawed their way into the middle class and saved up some money to start a business I'm not sure about that. From quick research, it looks like they generally require about $750,000 in liquid assets to open a franchise. That's a bit more than clawing your way into the middle class. Also, most of the McDonald's I've been too, (and I pay attention to this) are part of a multi-store franchise.
  - Mikeb85 13y ago
    While $750,000 is a lot of money, it's still middle class, and generally (around here anyway) restaurant franchise owners are those who are upwardly mobile, as opposed to educated and already in the upper classes of society. And yes, those who open one franchise successfully are likely to open more. However where I live, about half the McDonald's restaurants I used to visit as a kid are now Chinese and Indian restaurants...
    - learc83 13y ago
      >While $750,000 is a lot of money, it's still middle class Many sociologists consider anyone with a net worth of more than $1,000,000 rich (someone with $750k in cash likely has a net worth north of a million). Granted, that number is somewhat arbitrary and it depends on where you live. Your original description of the average McDonald's owner was of someone who clawed his way into the middle class. Implying that he started out poor and saved up until he could afford to buy a business. This may (or may not) be true of other less expensive franchises, but based on the available evidence, I'd wager that a very small percentage of McDonald's owners fit this description.
beachstartup 13y ago
we have cafes too. the quaint kind, with the little chairs, rickety metal-and-teak folding tables, and the snooty baristas with tattoos and piercings or neat white aprons. the reason this is making the news is because it's extraordinary, not because it's ordinary. people don't hang out at mcdonalds. you are concluding exactly the opposite of what common sense would dictate, probably because you haven't actually thought about what you are thinking. this is called a logical fallacy. in fact, why am i even explaining this to you... if you're so world wise and savvy, i'm sure you've been to new york to see for yourself.

kylec 13y ago

I've never been kicked out of a McDonald's for staying more than 20 minutes. The rule was likely created because large quantities of low- or non-paying people were inhabiting the space for long amounts of time, driving paying customers elsewhere. I don't blame the owners of this McDonald's for instituting a time limit, and I suspect that even if this happened in another country the business owner would likely do the same. I'm also sure McDonald's would welcome another entrant to "disrupt" the space and get them out of their establishment.

jbigelow76 13y ago

>There's an environment ripe for disruption. Being able to idle away hours while purchasing next to nothing without getting harassed and chased off was a problem "disrupted" long ago. The answer is parks, libraries, rec centers and for the right demographic retirement centers.

GFischer 13y ago
Both parks and libraries are not ideal year-round, especially for the elderly. I agree that there has to be some sort of disruption, especially since the trend signals towards a lot more elderly and other people with idle time. Maybe some civic-minded startup, NGO or other kind of nonprofit. I hope someone wealthy funds such ideas, I'm annoyed that at least in my country much of those services are hijacked by "churches" that are very opaquely run, but give people a sense of community and things to do. I hope for similar secular services (think televangelists). Example (in Spanish): http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/H%C3%A9ctor_An%C3%ADbal_Gim%C3%A9nez http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/H%C3%A9ctor_An%C3%ADbal_Gim%C3%...
- jbigelow76 13y ago
  What is wrong with libraries? Or VFW halls, Shriners/ELKs/etc halls, rotary clubs, bingo halls, the food court of a shopping mall. I'm not a religious person either but like you pointed out many churches provide space to solve this sort of problem. There actually are a lot of options, for those willing to compromise at least a little.
  - dba7dba 13y ago
    The seniors mentioned in the article live within TWO blocks of the McD.
    - jbigelow76 13y ago
      I did see that. I read the first article too. What these seniors would require for an adequate "disruption" would be: <= 2 blocks from home Bathroom facilities Enough room for tables and chairs to accommodate ~5-15 people Free or close to it Completely enclosed, some form of A/C preferred All that in a high density/high land value urban area. Like the old song goes, something's gotta give.
  - GFischer 13y ago
    You pointed out several good options actually :) . I want to see more of those in my country, some just don't exist (cultural differences), I don't know about that particular place (Queens).
rodgerd 13y ago
You mean the libraries whose funding seems to be steadily under attack in the UK and US? And I don't know about your neck of the woods, but in mine green belts and public parks are under costant seige from "developers" who want to privatise them. (That said, good luck to the GP's business disruption plan which will involve paying a lot of money for renting or owning real estate in the most expensive places on the planet, in order to let people who don't want to buy anything use it.)
- jbigelow76 13y ago
  Seniors are one of the most reliable demographics that turns out to vote[1]. If Libraries became an attractive meeting place for them they could probably exert enough pressure, particularly at the municipal level, to ensure libraries remain adequately budgeted. [1] http://www.census.gov/compendia/statab/2012/tables/12s0399.pdf http://www.census.gov/compendia/statab/2012/tables/12s0399.p...

skannamalai 13y ago

We have cafes and other neighborhood establishments here as well. But I appreciate that fact doesn't serve your sense of self-superiority.

stephencanon 13y ago

Interesting that you think this. My father eats lunch at McDonalds pretty frequently, and tends to stay for a couple hours reading the paper or taking advantage of the free wifi. There are people who go in to use the free wifi and don’t buy anything; nobody bothers them. When I was last in France, teenagers could often be found studying in McDonalds, because unlike the french cafes, they don’t get kicked out of McDonalds for buying some fries and a coke and then holding the table for a couple hours. Personally, I have no fondness for McDonalds at all, but your claim that they have some sort of corporate policy of not letting people linger seems spurious to me.

pickleport 13y ago
It doesn't say whether it's a corporate policy, but it is in the first line of the article. > The kerfuffle started when word spread that the police were repeatedly evicting elderly Korean patrons from a McDonald’s in Queens. The Koreans have been milking their stays over $1.09 coffees, violating the restaurant’s 20-minute dining limit.
- 001sky 13y ago
  That 20 minute policy is the source of the story. For years, that same franchise location did not have this policy in place. The coroporate parent does not have a uniform policy, it is up to the individual owners/franchisees. McD's parent company is familiar with the issue, however, as seen by the evolution of its architectural themes.
- cosmie 13y ago
  It's not a corporate policy. I've personally had hours-long study sessions at McDonalds restaurants with just a drink purchase. The article also mentions a group of women taking up an 8-person sitting area for hours at a time, nursing a single $1 coffee. For a four hour visit, this averages ~$0.03/seat/hr in revenue. These customers aren't truly dining, they're just congregating under the pretext of dining (by buying the minimal amount possible). _This_ is the type of behavior that would drive an individual store into implementing a 20-minute dining limit. Chances are it's loosely enforced for actual dining customers, but provides the necessary pretext for booting these people when the lunch rush begins and actual dining customers need somewhere to dine. If customers come to eat and can't find anywhere to sit, they'll start going elsewhere for food and the store will see a noticeable decline in revenue. While it sounds harsh, a restaurant is a business that makes money by selling food. The dining area is meant for dining. Systematically abusing it for congregating, while providing marginally little revenue, is going to result in limitations being erected to discourage such behavior. Coffee shops do the same thing with time limits on wifi, which is a limitation that works well to discourage their typical customer base. This crowd is just in it for the space, so the limitation invoked in this case is a time limit on the space itself.

bananacurve 13y ago

From the article: >There are scores of fast-food outlets, bakeries and cafes near Main Street, a half-mile away. Too busy feeling smug to read the god damn article?

Mikeb85 13y ago

> There's an environment ripe for disruption. Hah, good luck with a business in which your plan is to allow people to linger for hours after a $1 purchase. Cafés tolerate lingering only as long as you regularly purchase a worthwhile amount of their product (ie. buy a $5 coffee every day, maybe a sandwich and pastry, etc...). Furthermore, McDonald's restaurants are franchises, which means each location has a different owner, usually someone who's clawed their way into the middle class and saved up some money to start a business. Not the corporate fat-cats that no doubt come to mind when thinking of McDonald's. It's not like a location with adequate seating and business can make up lost revenues for another location.

learc83 13y ago
>usually someone who's clawed their way into the middle class and saved up some money to start a business I'm not sure about that. From quick research, it looks like they generally require about $750,000 in liquid assets to open a franchise. That's a bit more than clawing your way into the middle class. Also, most of the McDonald's I've been too, (and I pay attention to this) are part of a multi-store franchise.
- Mikeb85 13y ago
  While $750,000 is a lot of money, it's still middle class, and generally (around here anyway) restaurant franchise owners are those who are upwardly mobile, as opposed to educated and already in the upper classes of society. And yes, those who open one franchise successfully are likely to open more. However where I live, about half the McDonald's restaurants I used to visit as a kid are now Chinese and Indian restaurants...
  - learc83 13y ago
    >While $750,000 is a lot of money, it's still middle class Many sociologists consider anyone with a net worth of more than $1,000,000 rich (someone with $750k in cash likely has a net worth north of a million). Granted, that number is somewhat arbitrary and it depends on where you live. Your original description of the average McDonald's owner was of someone who clawed his way into the middle class. Implying that he started out poor and saved up until he could afford to buy a business. This may (or may not) be true of other less expensive franchises, but based on the available evidence, I'd wager that a very small percentage of McDonald's owners fit this description.

beachstartup 13y ago

we have cafes too. the quaint kind, with the little chairs, rickety metal-and-teak folding tables, and the snooty baristas with tattoos and piercings or neat white aprons. the reason this is making the news is because it's extraordinary, not because it's ordinary. people don't hang out at mcdonalds. you are concluding exactly the opposite of what common sense would dictate, probably because you haven't actually thought about what you are thinking. this is called a logical fallacy. in fact, why am i even explaining this to you... if you're so world wise and savvy, i'm sure you've been to new york to see for yourself.