5 ms·

He is not walking a fine line at all. He is a snake-oil salesman and a drug dealer. I think drugs should be legal, but I would never be in that business.

rms 19y ago
You say drug dealer like it is the worst thing in the world. What do you think pharmacists and Chinese herbalists are? It is definitely not snake oil but unfortunately I have been unable to fund formal clinical trials for kratom derivatives as painkillers and I doubt anything short of that will be enough evidence for you. I am sure though that the effectiveness would be demonstrated, both with kratom by itself and in a formulation with non-narcotic painkillers, similar to the way that oxy and hydrocodone are usually pressed into pills with acetaminophen or ibuprofen.
- inklesspen 19y ago
  Pharmacists are trained and licensed. You are not. Chinese herbalists are snake-oil salesmen who occasionally get damn lucky. Sure you want to compare yourself to such scammers?
  - drmed 19y ago
    He _is_ such a scammer.
  - rms 19y ago
    There is no science behind Chinese medicine, but it works for treating many symptoms in a way that is a lot cheaper than Western medicine, especially for people in China. Pain, menstrual cramps, that kind of thing. Responsible Chinese herbalists know the limits of what they do and recommend western medicine when appropriate.
    - drmed 19y ago
      There is no science behind using Kratom either. It's a diffuse mix of substances, any of which would be sold on their own if they had any pharmacological value beyond giving you a 'buzz'.
      - rms 19y ago
        http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=15770543&dopt=AbstractPlus http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?cmd=Retrieve&db... http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?Db=PubMed&Cmd=ShowDetailView&TermToSearch=14969718&ordinalpos=1&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVAbstractPlus http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?Db=PubMed&Cmd=S... http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?Db=PubMed&Cmd=ShowDetailView&TermToSearch=16169018&ordinalpos=1&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVAbstractPlus http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?Db=PubMed&Cmd=S... Milligram for milligram, 7-hydroxymitragynine is stronger than morphine. Despite the fact that Kratom has not yet been developed into a pharmaceutical doesn't mean it is worthless, it means the marketplace hasn't quite caught up yet.
        drmed 19y ago
        There is a huge difference between a fully developed drug and peddling a bunch of leaves. Just because there are a couple of papers about a substance extracted from this plant does not legitimize your false claims.
  - daniel-cussen 19y ago
    This looks like an excellent time to split hairs and point out that snake-oil is actually good medicine, despite its metaphorical usage. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snake_oil http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snake_oil
- falsestprophet 19y ago
  "What do you think pharmacists and Chinese herbalists are?" 1. I think pharmacists have pretty easy, lucrative jobs. Good for them. I also know a lot of student pharmacists. Some of them are very cute. Good for them. 2. I think Chinese herbalists are naive and, in general, smell strange. I hope, maybe, to be a pharmacologist one day. Our work is somewhat different than yours. You get people high. We kill the plague. I am trying not to dislike you. But you said, "I am sure though that the effectiveness would be demonstrated." Really you are sure? You are sure you aren't poisoning people? I am not.
  - rms 19y ago
    Thanks for that post. Can you edit the numbered statement to get rid of the leading space? This triggered the code mode which is causing horizontal scrolling on my screen.
  - ingenium 19y ago
    If you are actually into the pharmacology industry, then you would know that most pharmaceuticals are derived from plants, fungi, or other organisms. They simply then add or remove functional groups to tweak them to be a little more effective or patentable. Pharmacology also has developed drugs to let you keep an erection for 4 hours and to put you in a better mood. So I fail to see the difference. Furthermore, how many drugs have been granted FDA approval only to later be found to be dangerous? FDA approval really doesn't mean that much...what DOES is if something has been commonly used for centuries by a particular culture; if it was "poisoning people", they wouldn't have continued using it.
    - falsestprophet 19y ago
      "If it was "poisoning people", they wouldn't have continued using it." That is utterly false. "If you are actually into the pharmacology industry, then you would know that most pharmaceuticals are derived from plants, fungi, or other organisms." Well that has been the case for a very long time. This process is called drug discovery. We are going to be in a very good position to solve the "forward problem" in the near future. With adequate structure-activity models then computationally designed drugs are a real possibility. It is an exciting time for a hacker to be a chemical engineer.

rms 19y ago

You say drug dealer like it is the worst thing in the world. What do you think pharmacists and Chinese herbalists are? It is definitely not snake oil but unfortunately I have been unable to fund formal clinical trials for kratom derivatives as painkillers and I doubt anything short of that will be enough evidence for you. I am sure though that the effectiveness would be demonstrated, both with kratom by itself and in a formulation with non-narcotic painkillers, similar to the way that oxy and hydrocodone are usually pressed into pills with acetaminophen or ibuprofen.

inklesspen 19y ago
Pharmacists are trained and licensed. You are not. Chinese herbalists are snake-oil salesmen who occasionally get damn lucky. Sure you want to compare yourself to such scammers?
- drmed 19y ago
  He _is_ such a scammer.
- rms 19y ago
  There is no science behind Chinese medicine, but it works for treating many symptoms in a way that is a lot cheaper than Western medicine, especially for people in China. Pain, menstrual cramps, that kind of thing. Responsible Chinese herbalists know the limits of what they do and recommend western medicine when appropriate.
  - drmed 19y ago
    There is no science behind using Kratom either. It's a diffuse mix of substances, any of which would be sold on their own if they had any pharmacological value beyond giving you a 'buzz'.
    - rms 19y ago
      http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=15770543&dopt=AbstractPlus http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?cmd=Retrieve&db... http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?Db=PubMed&Cmd=ShowDetailView&TermToSearch=14969718&ordinalpos=1&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVAbstractPlus http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?Db=PubMed&Cmd=S... http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?Db=PubMed&Cmd=ShowDetailView&TermToSearch=16169018&ordinalpos=1&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVAbstractPlus http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?Db=PubMed&Cmd=S... Milligram for milligram, 7-hydroxymitragynine is stronger than morphine. Despite the fact that Kratom has not yet been developed into a pharmaceutical doesn't mean it is worthless, it means the marketplace hasn't quite caught up yet.
      - drmed 19y ago
        There is a huge difference between a fully developed drug and peddling a bunch of leaves. Just because there are a couple of papers about a substance extracted from this plant does not legitimize your false claims.
- daniel-cussen 19y ago
  This looks like an excellent time to split hairs and point out that snake-oil is actually good medicine, despite its metaphorical usage. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snake_oil http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snake_oil
falsestprophet 19y ago
"What do you think pharmacists and Chinese herbalists are?" 1. I think pharmacists have pretty easy, lucrative jobs. Good for them. I also know a lot of student pharmacists. Some of them are very cute. Good for them. 2. I think Chinese herbalists are naive and, in general, smell strange. I hope, maybe, to be a pharmacologist one day. Our work is somewhat different than yours. You get people high. We kill the plague. I am trying not to dislike you. But you said, "I am sure though that the effectiveness would be demonstrated." Really you are sure? You are sure you aren't poisoning people? I am not.
- rms 19y ago
  Thanks for that post. Can you edit the numbered statement to get rid of the leading space? This triggered the code mode which is causing horizontal scrolling on my screen.
- ingenium 19y ago
  If you are actually into the pharmacology industry, then you would know that most pharmaceuticals are derived from plants, fungi, or other organisms. They simply then add or remove functional groups to tweak them to be a little more effective or patentable. Pharmacology also has developed drugs to let you keep an erection for 4 hours and to put you in a better mood. So I fail to see the difference. Furthermore, how many drugs have been granted FDA approval only to later be found to be dangerous? FDA approval really doesn't mean that much...what DOES is if something has been commonly used for centuries by a particular culture; if it was "poisoning people", they wouldn't have continued using it.
  - falsestprophet 19y ago
    "If it was "poisoning people", they wouldn't have continued using it." That is utterly false. "If you are actually into the pharmacology industry, then you would know that most pharmaceuticals are derived from plants, fungi, or other organisms." Well that has been the case for a very long time. This process is called drug discovery. We are going to be in a very good position to solve the "forward problem" in the near future. With adequate structure-activity models then computationally designed drugs are a real possibility. It is an exciting time for a hacker to be a chemical engineer.