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What is the Ukrainian "identity"? Here is a map of the territory of Ukraine acquired by Czars or Soviet leaders: http://i.imgur.com/LAc1emR.jpg http://i.imgur.c

What is the Ukrainian "identity"? Here is a map of the territory of Ukraine acquired by Czars or Soviet leaders: http://i.imgur.com/LAc1emR.jpg http://i.imgur.com/LAc1emR.jpg. And before the USSR it was part of the Russian Empire. Both Slavic peoples have a close and often intangible history, as far back as Kievan Rus' and the principality of Kiev. As for myself, my grandfather was a Ukrainian with the surname Kozak, while my grandmother was a Russian by the name Svistelnikov. All the relatives I know were born in Ukraine, including those pre-dating the October revolution. Furthermore, you mention Holodomor- yet this was allegedly the fault of Stalin, head of the SOVIET state. Are you implying Stalin didn't kill Russians? That Russians somehow benefited from Ukrainian misery? Or, that Russians also didn't starve during those difficult times?

IgorPartola 13y ago
You are making my point. Ukraine has existed as a country for a very long time. It has been fought over and divided by neighboring countries for most of its existence. I am saying that it's time for Ukrainians to find, define, and defend their identity. > Are you implying Stalin didn't kill Russians? That Russians somehow benefited from Ukrainian misery? Or, that Russians also didn't starve during those difficult times? He did kill a fair share of them, but yes that is exactly what I am saying. Stalin wanted to assimilate the rest of the soviet republics into one homogenized Russian-based people. Holodomor was a part of it. Re-read the Wikipedia article and the primary sources. Re. Stalin: Let's not re-write history. USSR was Russia and Russia was USSR. No other country really mattered under Stalin and it was the Russian way or the highway.
- SpaceRaccoon 13y ago
  >Ukraine has existed as a country for a very long time. It has been fought over and divided by neighboring countries for most of its existence. I am saying that it's time for Ukrainians to find, define, and defend their identity. I ask, what is its identity? Because historically it has close ties to Russia and a shared history with all Slavic people. In fact, how do we define what Ukraine was over history, since if that image I posted is correct most of it's territory was given by the Russian empire or Soviet leaders. Furthermore, Kiev was just as much the birthplace of Russia as Ukraine- current Russia and Ukraine were once indistinguishable as the principality of Kiev: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Rus_de_Kiev_en_1237.png http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Rus_de_Kiev_en_1237.png >Stalin wanted to assimilate the rest of the soviet republics into one homogenized Russian-based people. Holodomor was a part of it. Re-read the Wikipedia article and the primary sources. Re. Stalin: Let's not re-write history. USSR was Russia and Russia was USSR. No other country really mattered under Stalin and it was the Russian way or the highway. Perhaps I am not familiar enough with it. Nonetheless, interesting how the hundreds of years of years of shared history should be disregarded because of the actions of one man who was ethnically neither Ukrainian nor Russian, and yet, according to you, killed Ukrainians in the name of Russians.
  - IgorPartola 13y ago
    > Perhaps I am not familiar enough with it. No, you are not. Nothing further to say about it. > I ask, what is its identity? Because historically it has close ties to Russia and a shared history with all Slavic people... This is exactly the patronizing point of view that the Russians take of the Ukrainian identity: that it does not exist or that Ukraine is simply a part of Russia. This is exactly what the protesters are fighting. The fact that there are protesters on the streets right now is proof enough. Moreover, any cultural identity does not exist in a vacuum. By your logic we can argue that the US has no identity of its own and is still just a breakaway British colony that is due to join the UK any day now. Just because one country invades another and subjugates its people for a period of time, does not make the occupied country a part of the occupying country. By that logic Poland has nearly as much claim on Ukraine as Russia does. Or, and I really like this one, Russia is just a part of Ukraine, and should immediately surrender all of its territories to Kiev immediately. After all Kiev was where Russia came from when Moscow was an insignificant fortress in the north.
    - SpaceRaccoon 13y ago
      >This is exactly the patronizing point of view that the Russians take of the Ukrainian identity: that it does not exist or that Ukraine is simply a part of Russia. Personally I believe Ukraine and Russia should be equals in whatever future association they make. I see nothing wrong with saying Russia should equally be a part of Ukraine. It is just easier to imagine the opposite because Russia is bigger. >This is exactly what the protesters are fighting. The fact that there are protesters on the streets right now is proof enough. There are all sorts of protesters out there, and I have read that most of them are protesting corruption, not the trade agreement or East vs West. Anyway, let the elections decide. >Just because one country invades another and subjugates its people for a period of time, does not make the occupied country a part of the occupying country. Except Ukraine willingly joined the Russian empire in 1654. And again, many Ukrainians would like closer ties to Russia. >Moreover, any cultural identity does not exist in a vacuum. By your logic we can argue that the US has no identity of its own and is still just a breakaway British colony that is due to join the UK any day now. The similarity is that the US and the UK have very strong relations, and a difference is that many hundreds of years have elapsed since the American revolution. But, similarly, during the American revolution, there were royalists, and a foreign power (the French) did intervene to defeat the British. The point is that many Ukrainians would like closer ties to Russia, particularly those in the East. Also, why pick the US when you can pick Canada- the Queen still comes by to visit, we have a governor-general, we are part of the commonwealth, and so on. A lot of people here feel close ties to the UK because of their British heritage.
- Mikeb85 13y ago
  > Ukraine has existed as a country for a very long time. Except it really hasn't. During the Kievan Rus era, there was no distinction between Russia and Ukraine. Ukraine was the frontier region (hence the etymology of the word from old Slavic), and it's been contested by Russia, Poland, Lithuania, Austro-Hungary, Tatars, etc... After centuries changing hands, Ukraine was eventually held by the Russian empire (who had by then moved its capital from Kyiv to Moscow), and Ukraine only became a country briefly from 1917 to 1920. Then again in 1991. To say its been a country 'for a very long time' is patently false, and revisionist history. > USSR was Russia and Russia was USSR. This is again false. When they murdered the royal family, suppressed the Church, and murdered millions of Russians, they ceased to represent the Russian people. They were a cabal of communists who oppressed Russians and many other peoples.

IgorPartola 13y ago

You are making my point. Ukraine has existed as a country for a very long time. It has been fought over and divided by neighboring countries for most of its existence. I am saying that it's time for Ukrainians to find, define, and defend their identity. > Are you implying Stalin didn't kill Russians? That Russians somehow benefited from Ukrainian misery? Or, that Russians also didn't starve during those difficult times? He did kill a fair share of them, but yes that is exactly what I am saying. Stalin wanted to assimilate the rest of the soviet republics into one homogenized Russian-based people. Holodomor was a part of it. Re-read the Wikipedia article and the primary sources. Re. Stalin: Let's not re-write history. USSR was Russia and Russia was USSR. No other country really mattered under Stalin and it was the Russian way or the highway.

SpaceRaccoon 13y ago
>Ukraine has existed as a country for a very long time. It has been fought over and divided by neighboring countries for most of its existence. I am saying that it's time for Ukrainians to find, define, and defend their identity. I ask, what is its identity? Because historically it has close ties to Russia and a shared history with all Slavic people. In fact, how do we define what Ukraine was over history, since if that image I posted is correct most of it's territory was given by the Russian empire or Soviet leaders. Furthermore, Kiev was just as much the birthplace of Russia as Ukraine- current Russia and Ukraine were once indistinguishable as the principality of Kiev: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Rus_de_Kiev_en_1237.png http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Rus_de_Kiev_en_1237.png >Stalin wanted to assimilate the rest of the soviet republics into one homogenized Russian-based people. Holodomor was a part of it. Re-read the Wikipedia article and the primary sources. Re. Stalin: Let's not re-write history. USSR was Russia and Russia was USSR. No other country really mattered under Stalin and it was the Russian way or the highway. Perhaps I am not familiar enough with it. Nonetheless, interesting how the hundreds of years of years of shared history should be disregarded because of the actions of one man who was ethnically neither Ukrainian nor Russian, and yet, according to you, killed Ukrainians in the name of Russians.
- IgorPartola 13y ago
  > Perhaps I am not familiar enough with it. No, you are not. Nothing further to say about it. > I ask, what is its identity? Because historically it has close ties to Russia and a shared history with all Slavic people... This is exactly the patronizing point of view that the Russians take of the Ukrainian identity: that it does not exist or that Ukraine is simply a part of Russia. This is exactly what the protesters are fighting. The fact that there are protesters on the streets right now is proof enough. Moreover, any cultural identity does not exist in a vacuum. By your logic we can argue that the US has no identity of its own and is still just a breakaway British colony that is due to join the UK any day now. Just because one country invades another and subjugates its people for a period of time, does not make the occupied country a part of the occupying country. By that logic Poland has nearly as much claim on Ukraine as Russia does. Or, and I really like this one, Russia is just a part of Ukraine, and should immediately surrender all of its territories to Kiev immediately. After all Kiev was where Russia came from when Moscow was an insignificant fortress in the north.
  - SpaceRaccoon 13y ago
    >This is exactly the patronizing point of view that the Russians take of the Ukrainian identity: that it does not exist or that Ukraine is simply a part of Russia. Personally I believe Ukraine and Russia should be equals in whatever future association they make. I see nothing wrong with saying Russia should equally be a part of Ukraine. It is just easier to imagine the opposite because Russia is bigger. >This is exactly what the protesters are fighting. The fact that there are protesters on the streets right now is proof enough. There are all sorts of protesters out there, and I have read that most of them are protesting corruption, not the trade agreement or East vs West. Anyway, let the elections decide. >Just because one country invades another and subjugates its people for a period of time, does not make the occupied country a part of the occupying country. Except Ukraine willingly joined the Russian empire in 1654. And again, many Ukrainians would like closer ties to Russia. >Moreover, any cultural identity does not exist in a vacuum. By your logic we can argue that the US has no identity of its own and is still just a breakaway British colony that is due to join the UK any day now. The similarity is that the US and the UK have very strong relations, and a difference is that many hundreds of years have elapsed since the American revolution. But, similarly, during the American revolution, there were royalists, and a foreign power (the French) did intervene to defeat the British. The point is that many Ukrainians would like closer ties to Russia, particularly those in the East. Also, why pick the US when you can pick Canada- the Queen still comes by to visit, we have a governor-general, we are part of the commonwealth, and so on. A lot of people here feel close ties to the UK because of their British heritage.
Mikeb85 13y ago
> Ukraine has existed as a country for a very long time. Except it really hasn't. During the Kievan Rus era, there was no distinction between Russia and Ukraine. Ukraine was the frontier region (hence the etymology of the word from old Slavic), and it's been contested by Russia, Poland, Lithuania, Austro-Hungary, Tatars, etc... After centuries changing hands, Ukraine was eventually held by the Russian empire (who had by then moved its capital from Kyiv to Moscow), and Ukraine only became a country briefly from 1917 to 1920. Then again in 1991. To say its been a country 'for a very long time' is patently false, and revisionist history. > USSR was Russia and Russia was USSR. This is again false. When they murdered the royal family, suppressed the Church, and murdered millions of Russians, they ceased to represent the Russian people. They were a cabal of communists who oppressed Russians and many other peoples.