4 ms·

I think this is a good change because GOAWAY is simpler, more obvious, and has a tone matching the actual operation. Plus, the har-har pretense that GTFO means

I think this is a good change because GOAWAY is simpler, more obvious, and has a tone matching the actual operation. Plus, the har-har pretense that GTFO means "General termination of future operations" is childish. With that out of the way, the pearl-clutching about the word "fuck" and how unprofessional it is irritates me. We have this weird notion that it's OK for us to curse individually but that there's this wider world out there that hates cursing. I don't think that's true and we should stop acting like it is. More generally, I think this almost arbitrary division of professional vs unprofessional things [1] does a big disservice to actual differences in professionalism like courtesy, personal responsibility, and reliability. "If you follow these silly rules, you can pretend to be an adult!" [1] Joel Spolsky has a great essay about this that I wasn't immediately able to find. It mentioned, among other things, how silly it is that the smell of popcorn is said to be "unprofessional".

untog 13y ago
I'm less concerned about the professionalism side of it than I am the confusion one. Do non-English speakers use GTFO? If not we've just given them a hard to remember acronym for no good reason.
- rtpg 13y ago
  I think people know what it means, but the bigger issue is that a lot of non-native English speakers do not parse nuance very well, and might not understand that the term in itself is somewhat strong. I've heard a lot of foreigners (especially people from nordic countries or germany) speaking English in a way that is a lot ruder than they might realize. One thing is the personality (they seem to be more direct), but there have been many instances where it's obvious they aren't aware that the language they're using is way too strong for their situation. This goes doubly so if your main English education is internet forums. Not saying that it's a reason to remove GTFO, but the humor (which is slightly in the very exaggerated vocabulary, which seems to be misinterpreted as a strong intent) is probably lost in translation.
mmatants 13y ago
Fuck and other profanities are signal words for extreme emotional state. Professionalism includes remaining fair and emotionally unaffected under most reasonable conditions. Hence the dissonance of using "fuck" and other charged (culture-dependent of course) words and sentiments in work life.
- Crito 13y ago
  Signalling an extreme emotional state is only one of many uses for the word "fuck". It is an incredibly versatile word: (probably nsfw) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LN5eYFH8HZ8 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LN5eYFH8HZ8
  - humanrebar 13y ago
    Technically that's true, but technically you can type in all caps without being emotional.
Sharlin 13y ago
With that out of the way, the pearl-clutching about the word "fuck" and how unprofessional it is irritates me. We have this weird notion that it's OK for us to curse individually but that there's this wider world out there that hates cursing. Different contexts call for different language and tone of voice. I don't think cursing is a special case in this regard; it's just that it is by definition harsh and forceful and informal and thus does not belong in formal language like standard documents.
humanrebar 13y ago
You don't curse around people for the same reason you chew with your mouth closed... to be polite. That is, you do it out of consideration for others' feelings. It doesn't matter if you understand why someone could find something offensive or if you meant anything by it. Similarly, it's unprofessional to use other offensive words (such as sexist or racist terms, even the ones that aren't bleeped out in popular media). But use whatever language you want. At the end of the day, you don't have to be considerate, but they don't have to consider you professional. Not that being unprofessional is always a big deal. Lots of people and companies are very successful without being considered professional.
- Crito 13y ago
  Hold up, the reason I don't chew with my mouth open is that people don't want to see my chewed up food (basically pre-vomit). The reason why I do feel comfortable swearing is because people actually don't have their feelings damaged or hurt by it. The reason I don't insult people is because people actually do have their feelings hurt by it. The reason I don't use misogynistic or racist language (this notably includes a few choice "swear words") is because people actually do have their feelings hurt by it. Three of these are rational taboos because people actually are bothered by them. The other is an irrational taboo, a relic that use to be rational but hasn't been for decades. Not using the word "fuck" is on the same level as wearing a tie to work, there is no remaining reason to do it outside of tradition. Not chewing with your mouth open, or not using misogynistic swear words, is more on the level of putting on underwear and pants before going to work. You do it for the benefit of others, not solely out of tradition.
  - dllthomas 13y ago
    I have definitely known people actually bothered by cursing, though I have every expectation they are not as prevalent as they once were. I don't know quite what the prevalence is, and I don't know what portion of people need to be bothered by something for it to effect your default behavior. Obviously, if you're in a group you know to have individuals (or not) that are offended any behavior and you wish to avoid (or not) offending those individuals, act accordingly.
jamesgeck0 13y ago
We have this weird notion that it's OK for us to curse individually but that there's this wider world out there that hates cursing. I don't think that's true and we should stop acting like it is. Hi, I'm part of the world you don't believe exists. I don't curse, the people I work with don't curse, the vast majority of my friends don't curse, and I've never heard a relative curse. It's not OK to be offensive just because you don't believe that there are people whose vocabulary is cleaner than yours.
- redblacktree 13y ago
  Sure it is. Just as it's OK for you to be offended by it.
  - humanrebar 13y ago
    And it's OK for them to consider swearing unprofessional. Everyone gets opinions!

untog 13y ago

I'm less concerned about the professionalism side of it than I am the confusion one. Do non-English speakers use GTFO? If not we've just given them a hard to remember acronym for no good reason.

rtpg 13y ago
I think people know what it means, but the bigger issue is that a lot of non-native English speakers do not parse nuance very well, and might not understand that the term in itself is somewhat strong. I've heard a lot of foreigners (especially people from nordic countries or germany) speaking English in a way that is a lot ruder than they might realize. One thing is the personality (they seem to be more direct), but there have been many instances where it's obvious they aren't aware that the language they're using is way too strong for their situation. This goes doubly so if your main English education is internet forums. Not saying that it's a reason to remove GTFO, but the humor (which is slightly in the very exaggerated vocabulary, which seems to be misinterpreted as a strong intent) is probably lost in translation.

mmatants 13y ago

Fuck and other profanities are signal words for extreme emotional state. Professionalism includes remaining fair and emotionally unaffected under most reasonable conditions. Hence the dissonance of using "fuck" and other charged (culture-dependent of course) words and sentiments in work life.

Crito 13y ago
Signalling an extreme emotional state is only one of many uses for the word "fuck". It is an incredibly versatile word: (probably nsfw) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LN5eYFH8HZ8 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LN5eYFH8HZ8
- humanrebar 13y ago
  Technically that's true, but technically you can type in all caps without being emotional.

Sharlin 13y ago

With that out of the way, the pearl-clutching about the word "fuck" and how unprofessional it is irritates me. We have this weird notion that it's OK for us to curse individually but that there's this wider world out there that hates cursing. Different contexts call for different language and tone of voice. I don't think cursing is a special case in this regard; it's just that it is by definition harsh and forceful and informal and thus does not belong in formal language like standard documents.

humanrebar 13y ago

You don't curse around people for the same reason you chew with your mouth closed... to be polite. That is, you do it out of consideration for others' feelings. It doesn't matter if you understand why someone could find something offensive or if you meant anything by it. Similarly, it's unprofessional to use other offensive words (such as sexist or racist terms, even the ones that aren't bleeped out in popular media). But use whatever language you want. At the end of the day, you don't have to be considerate, but they don't have to consider you professional. Not that being unprofessional is always a big deal. Lots of people and companies are very successful without being considered professional.

Crito 13y ago
Hold up, the reason I don't chew with my mouth open is that people don't want to see my chewed up food (basically pre-vomit). The reason why I do feel comfortable swearing is because people actually don't have their feelings damaged or hurt by it. The reason I don't insult people is because people actually do have their feelings hurt by it. The reason I don't use misogynistic or racist language (this notably includes a few choice "swear words") is because people actually do have their feelings hurt by it. Three of these are rational taboos because people actually are bothered by them. The other is an irrational taboo, a relic that use to be rational but hasn't been for decades. Not using the word "fuck" is on the same level as wearing a tie to work, there is no remaining reason to do it outside of tradition. Not chewing with your mouth open, or not using misogynistic swear words, is more on the level of putting on underwear and pants before going to work. You do it for the benefit of others, not solely out of tradition.
- dllthomas 13y ago
  I have definitely known people actually bothered by cursing, though I have every expectation they are not as prevalent as they once were. I don't know quite what the prevalence is, and I don't know what portion of people need to be bothered by something for it to effect your default behavior. Obviously, if you're in a group you know to have individuals (or not) that are offended any behavior and you wish to avoid (or not) offending those individuals, act accordingly.

jamesgeck0 13y ago

We have this weird notion that it's OK for us to curse individually but that there's this wider world out there that hates cursing. I don't think that's true and we should stop acting like it is. Hi, I'm part of the world you don't believe exists. I don't curse, the people I work with don't curse, the vast majority of my friends don't curse, and I've never heard a relative curse. It's not OK to be offensive just because you don't believe that there are people whose vocabulary is cleaner than yours.

redblacktree 13y ago
Sure it is. Just as it's OK for you to be offended by it.
- humanrebar 13y ago
  And it's OK for them to consider swearing unprofessional. Everyone gets opinions!