6 ms·

If you were a pharmaceutical company, and you did the appropriate, properly controlled clinical trials to demonstrate that this stuff is both safe and effective

If you were a pharmaceutical company, and you did the appropriate, properly controlled clinical trials to demonstrate that this stuff is both safe and effective, then it would be OK. Until you do that, you're walking a fine line between being a snake-oil salesman and a drug dealer.

rms 19y ago
I'd love to do clinical trials, but I don't have tens of millions of dollars. Any suggestions? It seems nearly impossible for an outsider to break into the pharmaceutical industry.
- greendestiny 19y ago
  Here's a suggestion: stop selling it. Where do you come up with a list of uses if you haven't done these trials? How do you know its safe? It might not be illegal but that doesn't make it ethical.
  - rms 19y ago
    Kratom has been used safely by the people of Southeast Asia for hundreds of years. It's banning in Thailand was an authoritarian reaction to Western war-on-drugs hysteria and the prohibition has failed miserably because kratom literally grows on trees in Southeast Asia. It would be like if the maple tree was banned in North America.
    - greendestiny 19y ago
      Tabacco had been used for thousands of years before we understand more about its cancer risks. You haven't mentioned how you arrived at the beneficial uses of the drug either. Claiming similar efficacy to mainstream pharmaceuticals without similar proof is unethical. You don't think people should use kratom without their doctors advice? How many of your customers do you genuinely believe are acting on the advice of their medical professional? I think suggesting that they should get a doctors opinion purely on the basis that it might indemnify you or give your claims legitimacy is pretty unethical.
      - ingenium 19y ago
        Can you show me that tobacco was used habitually for thousands of years? It wasn't until Europeans started growing plantations of it in the Americas that it was used like this. The native people used it during ceremonial purposes, but this small of usage isn't harmful. We arrived that these beneficial uses from what others have said and from personal experience. I can testify that one "dose" of kratom is similar in strength to 20-30mg of hydrocodone. There also have been studies showing that the active ingredient is in fact an opiate. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=15770543&dopt=AbstractPlus http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?cmd=Retrieve&db... As for a doctor's opinion, I have several friends who are medical doctors and have tried kratom. They unanimously approve of kratom for medical as well as recreational uses.
        drmed 19y ago
        > As for a doctor's opinion, I have several friends who are medical doctors and have tried kratom. They unanimously approve of kratom for medical as well as recreational uses. I'm sure they will write you a glowing endorsement for your website, name and all. I'm a doctor, and I unanimously disapprove.
        greendestiny 19y ago
        Tobacco was used for a very long time habitually before we understand its dangers. Personal experience is not scientific evidence. While it seems reasonably well established that kratom is a minor analgesic like codeine, there seems to be basically no evidence for the other claims. Additionally its addictive.
    - deleted 19y ago
      [deleted]
    - herdrick 19y ago
      > kratom literally grows on trees You said before it was an opiate. Which is it, an opiate, or something from a tree?
      - rms 19y ago
        The leaf of the kratom tree is commonly referred to as kratom. It contains a mix of many different lkaloids. One of these alkaloids is 7-hydroxymitragynine, in the same way that one of the alkaloids of coffee is caffeine and one of the alkaloids of coca is cocaine. Animal testing shows that 7-hydroxymitragynine has opiod agonist activity 17-times greater than morphine.
  - davidw 19y ago
    From the people who drank a lot of wine without any clinical trials at all: "caveat emptor". What he should be is transparent about the whole business. Don't try and fool people, give them all the information there is, and let them decide.
- aheilbut 19y ago
  Why don't you try getting into a less capital intensive and less regulated business, like, say, a web startup? As problematic as the pharmaceutical industry is, there are very good reasons that these products are regulated, not least of which is that they can lead to injury and death. Safety and efficacy of the active ingredient aside, how do you know that the product you're selling is even what you think it is?
  - ingenium 19y ago
    I've done kratom, as I'm selling it with rms. I've also taken prescription pain killers, and I can assure you that it is definitely the real thing. A web startup is not for everyone. The problem with web 2.0 is that most of the time, there simply is no business model. Selling kratom does have a clear business model. I fail to see what the difference is between selling kratom and selling something as a "health supplement". Neither have been FDA tested or verified. Yet people are perfectly fine with selling and buying supplements which are usually just placebos.
- drmed 19y ago
  Bullshit. Kratom is a plant, not a substance. If you had any clue, you would just shut up and go away, Mr. misunderstood 'outsider'.
  - rms 19y ago
    So maybe I'm trolling, in the sense that I knew my post would evoke strong emotional responses from some individuals, but so are you.
    - drmed 19y ago
      So you admit to trolling? Well, I'm not trolling, I'm just genuinly pissed off at your manipulative and dangerous attempts to sell dubious drugs under the guise of 'running a business'. What does this have to do with Y-Combinator startups? Nothing.
falsestprophet 19y ago
He is not walking a fine line at all. He is a snake-oil salesman and a drug dealer. I think drugs should be legal, but I would never be in that business.
- rms 19y ago
  You say drug dealer like it is the worst thing in the world. What do you think pharmacists and Chinese herbalists are? It is definitely not snake oil but unfortunately I have been unable to fund formal clinical trials for kratom derivatives as painkillers and I doubt anything short of that will be enough evidence for you. I am sure though that the effectiveness would be demonstrated, both with kratom by itself and in a formulation with non-narcotic painkillers, similar to the way that oxy and hydrocodone are usually pressed into pills with acetaminophen or ibuprofen.
  - inklesspen 19y ago
    Pharmacists are trained and licensed. You are not. Chinese herbalists are snake-oil salesmen who occasionally get damn lucky. Sure you want to compare yourself to such scammers?
    - drmed 19y ago
      He _is_ such a scammer.
    - rms 19y ago
      There is no science behind Chinese medicine, but it works for treating many symptoms in a way that is a lot cheaper than Western medicine, especially for people in China. Pain, menstrual cramps, that kind of thing. Responsible Chinese herbalists know the limits of what they do and recommend western medicine when appropriate.
      - drmed 19y ago
        There is no science behind using Kratom either. It's a diffuse mix of substances, any of which would be sold on their own if they had any pharmacological value beyond giving you a 'buzz'.

rms 19y ago

I'd love to do clinical trials, but I don't have tens of millions of dollars. Any suggestions? It seems nearly impossible for an outsider to break into the pharmaceutical industry.

greendestiny 19y ago
Here's a suggestion: stop selling it. Where do you come up with a list of uses if you haven't done these trials? How do you know its safe? It might not be illegal but that doesn't make it ethical.
- rms 19y ago
  Kratom has been used safely by the people of Southeast Asia for hundreds of years. It's banning in Thailand was an authoritarian reaction to Western war-on-drugs hysteria and the prohibition has failed miserably because kratom literally grows on trees in Southeast Asia. It would be like if the maple tree was banned in North America.
  - greendestiny 19y ago
    Tabacco had been used for thousands of years before we understand more about its cancer risks. You haven't mentioned how you arrived at the beneficial uses of the drug either. Claiming similar efficacy to mainstream pharmaceuticals without similar proof is unethical. You don't think people should use kratom without their doctors advice? How many of your customers do you genuinely believe are acting on the advice of their medical professional? I think suggesting that they should get a doctors opinion purely on the basis that it might indemnify you or give your claims legitimacy is pretty unethical.
    - ingenium 19y ago
      Can you show me that tobacco was used habitually for thousands of years? It wasn't until Europeans started growing plantations of it in the Americas that it was used like this. The native people used it during ceremonial purposes, but this small of usage isn't harmful. We arrived that these beneficial uses from what others have said and from personal experience. I can testify that one "dose" of kratom is similar in strength to 20-30mg of hydrocodone. There also have been studies showing that the active ingredient is in fact an opiate. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=15770543&dopt=AbstractPlus http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?cmd=Retrieve&db... As for a doctor's opinion, I have several friends who are medical doctors and have tried kratom. They unanimously approve of kratom for medical as well as recreational uses.
      - drmed 19y ago
        > As for a doctor's opinion, I have several friends who are medical doctors and have tried kratom. They unanimously approve of kratom for medical as well as recreational uses. I'm sure they will write you a glowing endorsement for your website, name and all. I'm a doctor, and I unanimously disapprove.
      - greendestiny 19y ago
        Tobacco was used for a very long time habitually before we understand its dangers. Personal experience is not scientific evidence. While it seems reasonably well established that kratom is a minor analgesic like codeine, there seems to be basically no evidence for the other claims. Additionally its addictive.
  - deleted 19y ago
    [deleted]
  - herdrick 19y ago
    > kratom literally grows on trees You said before it was an opiate. Which is it, an opiate, or something from a tree?
    - rms 19y ago
      The leaf of the kratom tree is commonly referred to as kratom. It contains a mix of many different lkaloids. One of these alkaloids is 7-hydroxymitragynine, in the same way that one of the alkaloids of coffee is caffeine and one of the alkaloids of coca is cocaine. Animal testing shows that 7-hydroxymitragynine has opiod agonist activity 17-times greater than morphine.
- davidw 19y ago
  From the people who drank a lot of wine without any clinical trials at all: "caveat emptor". What he should be is transparent about the whole business. Don't try and fool people, give them all the information there is, and let them decide.
aheilbut 19y ago
Why don't you try getting into a less capital intensive and less regulated business, like, say, a web startup? As problematic as the pharmaceutical industry is, there are very good reasons that these products are regulated, not least of which is that they can lead to injury and death. Safety and efficacy of the active ingredient aside, how do you know that the product you're selling is even what you think it is?
- ingenium 19y ago
  I've done kratom, as I'm selling it with rms. I've also taken prescription pain killers, and I can assure you that it is definitely the real thing. A web startup is not for everyone. The problem with web 2.0 is that most of the time, there simply is no business model. Selling kratom does have a clear business model. I fail to see what the difference is between selling kratom and selling something as a "health supplement". Neither have been FDA tested or verified. Yet people are perfectly fine with selling and buying supplements which are usually just placebos.
drmed 19y ago
Bullshit. Kratom is a plant, not a substance. If you had any clue, you would just shut up and go away, Mr. misunderstood 'outsider'.
- rms 19y ago
  So maybe I'm trolling, in the sense that I knew my post would evoke strong emotional responses from some individuals, but so are you.
  - drmed 19y ago
    So you admit to trolling? Well, I'm not trolling, I'm just genuinly pissed off at your manipulative and dangerous attempts to sell dubious drugs under the guise of 'running a business'. What does this have to do with Y-Combinator startups? Nothing.

falsestprophet 19y ago

He is not walking a fine line at all. He is a snake-oil salesman and a drug dealer. I think drugs should be legal, but I would never be in that business.

rms 19y ago
You say drug dealer like it is the worst thing in the world. What do you think pharmacists and Chinese herbalists are? It is definitely not snake oil but unfortunately I have been unable to fund formal clinical trials for kratom derivatives as painkillers and I doubt anything short of that will be enough evidence for you. I am sure though that the effectiveness would be demonstrated, both with kratom by itself and in a formulation with non-narcotic painkillers, similar to the way that oxy and hydrocodone are usually pressed into pills with acetaminophen or ibuprofen.
- inklesspen 19y ago
  Pharmacists are trained and licensed. You are not. Chinese herbalists are snake-oil salesmen who occasionally get damn lucky. Sure you want to compare yourself to such scammers?
  - drmed 19y ago
    He _is_ such a scammer.
  - rms 19y ago
    There is no science behind Chinese medicine, but it works for treating many symptoms in a way that is a lot cheaper than Western medicine, especially for people in China. Pain, menstrual cramps, that kind of thing. Responsible Chinese herbalists know the limits of what they do and recommend western medicine when appropriate.
    - drmed 19y ago
      There is no science behind using Kratom either. It's a diffuse mix of substances, any of which would be sold on their own if they had any pharmacological value beyond giving you a 'buzz'.