4 ms·

I commented on a similar post a couple of months ago but will re-paste it here. A good job posting in my opinion must include: - LOCATION or REMOTE. You can t

I commented on a similar post a couple of months ago but will re-paste it here. A good job posting in my opinion must include: - LOCATION or REMOTE. You can talk all about your great company, awesome team, great perks but if you don't tell me where do I need to go, it is really not very useful. - COMPANY NAME: I hate it when recruiters post "Fortune 500 client". Really ? Could you be any more specific ? </sarcasm> - SALARY RANGE: "Market Rate Salary", "Salary: Competitve", "Salary: commensurate on experience" is all bullshit. Give me a range. I understand that the exact salary could depend on how good you are but every employer has a range. Specifically big companies. Also, please make the range reasonable. 60K-150K is bullshit because then you are just throwing numbers for the sake of it. 60K-85K or 100K-130K is more reasonable. - TEAM DESCRIPTION: Describe the team as much as possible without necessarily revealing personal info. I would rather like to read "We are a team of 5 people spread across the globe where 2 of us do the back end dev in NYC.......". Don't give me generics like "Excellent motivated team working on world changing projects looking for the next ninja to join our awesome team". Really again ? - WHY ARE YOU LOOKING TO HIRE: This is a must for me. Is this position open just because you have some cash to burn to show good to the management that you are "growing" the team or is there really a pain point that can be addressed by hiring. What problems are you facing currently that could be solved by this hire ? It is better to be needed than being a nice to have. - BENEFITS: This one is a nice to have. But again be specific if you can. You offer 401K/pension ? awesome. now tell me what the employer match percentage is. Or at least link to your HR benefits site if it is externally available. I am always surprised to see how little you know about benefits until you are hired. In the US, health insurance is a big deal. I want to know upfront what kinds of plans are offered which could impact my salary requirements as well.

calhoun137 13y ago
I just wrote my first every job post yesterday, what a great life experience =) !!! Anyway I did all of these things except salary range. If I left that out, I thought it would give me more room to negotiate, it's an iOS job for a startup btw (email me if interested I guess). I mean, these iOS guys know what the going rates are, I didn't see the point of writing down a number for my first ever job post, plus I was scarred of picking the wrong number =/ How bad is it to not include the salary range type info?
- codegeek 13y ago
  Here is the problem with not including a range. If you want to attract good candidates who know their stuff, they will most likely be put off by not having any idea. You can always argue "but what if my lowest number is too high and I lose by disclosing it first?" but the fact is that if a good fit candidate is reading that job description, your lower range is most likely indeed a "low" number. Good candidates are more interested in the high number because if that number is anything below their requirement, why bother ? But then you could argue "what if I can convince them to join me even though I am paying peanuts" and the answer is you will most likely lose. Rarely you will find good fits who are desperate. Remember they are usually "passive". So instead of worrying about numbers game, be honest and disclose whats the "least" you can pay and whats the "most" you can pay. Leave the in between for negotiation. Good candidates who you want to hire will like the fact that they know what they are working with. Also, don't make the range too broad like 60K-150K. Thats useless because then you are just putting numbers for the sake of numbers. A range like 60K-85K or 100K-130K is more reasonable. Also tells the candidate immmediately if it is worth their time.
mnw21cam 13y ago
Great post. I second the salary point. A geek salary has a very wide range, and I'd quite like to filter out those positions that would give me a pay cut first, thank you very much. Just one thing - you might want to translate US-specific terms like "401K" into globally understandable terms like "pension".
- dethtron5000 13y ago
  FWIW, 401(k) and pensions are very different things.
  - mnw21cam 13y ago
    Having glanced my eye over http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/401%28k%29 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/401%28k%29 I personally can't see much difference between it and what I would call a contributory pension scheme. Perhaps you could explain what the main differences are between a 401k and a pension, in the eyes of a USian.
    - chadwickthebold 13y ago
      In the US, a pension is traditionally considered a scheme by which you receive a lifetime stipend from a company upon retirement after working for a set number of years. A 401k is a contributory 'pension', but the word 'pension' just has a different social connotation in the US.
    - dragonwriter 13y ago
      A pension is generally a defined benefit retirement plan (a guaranteed annuity), whereas a 401(k) is one (of many) kinds of defined contribution retirement plans. A "contributory pension" is a pension to which an employee makes contributions from, a "noncontributory pension" is one where the entire amount is funded by the employer, which is a different axis of distinction from the pension (defined benefit) vs. defined contribution distinction.
      - mnw21cam 13y ago
fecak 13y ago
A couple explanations from a recruiter (why recruiters do these things): - Company name: Agency recruiters don't post company names typically because they are afraid other recruiting companies might steal their clients. If a competitor agency sees COMPANY is hiring, they might call and try to compete for their business. This is a huge fear in the contingency recruiting world, but in the retained world it isn't as big an issue. (I post client names, but my business isn't contingency) - Salary range: The problem with posting a salary range is that candidates only hear the high number. Most will say that isn't true, but I've been recruiting for 15 years and whenever I gave a salary range to candidates of say 100-120, they would automatically expect that they would get the 120. Any offer below 120 was considered lowball. I'm sure there will be some who say they wouldn't feel that way, but it happened almost every time. - Team description: Interesting that you mention personal info. It seems the trend is starting to move towards publicizing the members of teams where that could be a recruiting tool. If you have great engineers that are willing to have a somewhat public face for your company, many companies seem willing to use that to their advantage in today's environment. The risk of exposing team members to poaching by other firms used to be a larger concern, but now most people can be found via LinkedIn, GitHub, blogs, etc. - Why you are looking to hire: When it's growth and new projects, I'll usually list it. When it's a replacement due to termination or turnover, don't expect that to be advertised. - Benefits: Again, if the information is positive we tend to list it. If they are industry average, they typically aren't worth mentioning. It's possible to write job descriptions that will get great responses while including none of the things you list here (except perhaps location).
- anon4 13y ago
  About the range - of course I'll try and go for the high. You've told me you're prepared to pay that much, why would I negotiate for anything less? Have you tried giving only the lower bound though? Something like "starting at 95". Then the candidate comes and asks for 110.
  - fecak 13y ago
    Let's say we're hiring for a Ruby Dev. My client needs talent, and we're not the kind of place that is going to say "Must have 2 years with X and 4 years with Y", because we're smarter than that. So I know we might get someone with 1 yr, or we might get someone with 5 yrs. So the range might be, realistically, 70-120K. I tell you our range is 70-120K, and you tell me you are 1 yr out of school. Then you try to negotiate to 120K. I tell you that is for someone with more experience. This happens all the time in the business. 15 years recruiting, saw it most of my first 10, and now I don't get into ranges. When I'm working with senior level folks I respect their time and let them know if I think they'll need to take a haircut on compensation or if they are underpaid and might expect a nice bump. Most recruiters probably don't do that. Giving the lower end of the range doesn't really provide any benefit to either party (that I can think of anyway). If the candidate is making more than the low end, he/she is likely to ask for a high end. If the candidate is making less, he/she is probably happy that they might get a bump.

calhoun137 13y ago

I just wrote my first every job post yesterday, what a great life experience =) !!! Anyway I did all of these things except salary range. If I left that out, I thought it would give me more room to negotiate, it's an iOS job for a startup btw (email me if interested I guess). I mean, these iOS guys know what the going rates are, I didn't see the point of writing down a number for my first ever job post, plus I was scarred of picking the wrong number =/ How bad is it to not include the salary range type info?

codegeek 13y ago
Here is the problem with not including a range. If you want to attract good candidates who know their stuff, they will most likely be put off by not having any idea. You can always argue "but what if my lowest number is too high and I lose by disclosing it first?" but the fact is that if a good fit candidate is reading that job description, your lower range is most likely indeed a "low" number. Good candidates are more interested in the high number because if that number is anything below their requirement, why bother ? But then you could argue "what if I can convince them to join me even though I am paying peanuts" and the answer is you will most likely lose. Rarely you will find good fits who are desperate. Remember they are usually "passive". So instead of worrying about numbers game, be honest and disclose whats the "least" you can pay and whats the "most" you can pay. Leave the in between for negotiation. Good candidates who you want to hire will like the fact that they know what they are working with. Also, don't make the range too broad like 60K-150K. Thats useless because then you are just putting numbers for the sake of numbers. A range like 60K-85K or 100K-130K is more reasonable. Also tells the candidate immmediately if it is worth their time.

mnw21cam 13y ago

Great post. I second the salary point. A geek salary has a very wide range, and I'd quite like to filter out those positions that would give me a pay cut first, thank you very much. Just one thing - you might want to translate US-specific terms like "401K" into globally understandable terms like "pension".

dethtron5000 13y ago
FWIW, 401(k) and pensions are very different things.
- mnw21cam 13y ago
  Having glanced my eye over http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/401%28k%29 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/401%28k%29 I personally can't see much difference between it and what I would call a contributory pension scheme. Perhaps you could explain what the main differences are between a 401k and a pension, in the eyes of a USian.
  - chadwickthebold 13y ago
    In the US, a pension is traditionally considered a scheme by which you receive a lifetime stipend from a company upon retirement after working for a set number of years. A 401k is a contributory 'pension', but the word 'pension' just has a different social connotation in the US.
  - dragonwriter 13y ago
    A pension is generally a defined benefit retirement plan (a guaranteed annuity), whereas a 401(k) is one (of many) kinds of defined contribution retirement plans. A "contributory pension" is a pension to which an employee makes contributions from, a "noncontributory pension" is one where the entire amount is funded by the employer, which is a different axis of distinction from the pension (defined benefit) vs. defined contribution distinction.
    - mnw21cam 13y ago

fecak 13y ago

A couple explanations from a recruiter (why recruiters do these things): - Company name: Agency recruiters don't post company names typically because they are afraid other recruiting companies might steal their clients. If a competitor agency sees COMPANY is hiring, they might call and try to compete for their business. This is a huge fear in the contingency recruiting world, but in the retained world it isn't as big an issue. (I post client names, but my business isn't contingency) - Salary range: The problem with posting a salary range is that candidates only hear the high number. Most will say that isn't true, but I've been recruiting for 15 years and whenever I gave a salary range to candidates of say 100-120, they would automatically expect that they would get the 120. Any offer below 120 was considered lowball. I'm sure there will be some who say they wouldn't feel that way, but it happened almost every time. - Team description: Interesting that you mention personal info. It seems the trend is starting to move towards publicizing the members of teams where that could be a recruiting tool. If you have great engineers that are willing to have a somewhat public face for your company, many companies seem willing to use that to their advantage in today's environment. The risk of exposing team members to poaching by other firms used to be a larger concern, but now most people can be found via LinkedIn, GitHub, blogs, etc. - Why you are looking to hire: When it's growth and new projects, I'll usually list it. When it's a replacement due to termination or turnover, don't expect that to be advertised. - Benefits: Again, if the information is positive we tend to list it. If they are industry average, they typically aren't worth mentioning. It's possible to write job descriptions that will get great responses while including none of the things you list here (except perhaps location).

anon4 13y ago
About the range - of course I'll try and go for the high. You've told me you're prepared to pay that much, why would I negotiate for anything less? Have you tried giving only the lower bound though? Something like "starting at 95". Then the candidate comes and asks for 110.
- fecak 13y ago
  Let's say we're hiring for a Ruby Dev. My client needs talent, and we're not the kind of place that is going to say "Must have 2 years with X and 4 years with Y", because we're smarter than that. So I know we might get someone with 1 yr, or we might get someone with 5 yrs. So the range might be, realistically, 70-120K. I tell you our range is 70-120K, and you tell me you are 1 yr out of school. Then you try to negotiate to 120K. I tell you that is for someone with more experience. This happens all the time in the business. 15 years recruiting, saw it most of my first 10, and now I don't get into ranges. When I'm working with senior level folks I respect their time and let them know if I think they'll need to take a haircut on compensation or if they are underpaid and might expect a nice bump. Most recruiters probably don't do that. Giving the lower end of the range doesn't really provide any benefit to either party (that I can think of anyway). If the candidate is making more than the low end, he/she is likely to ask for a high end. If the candidate is making less, he/she is probably happy that they might get a bump.