6 ms·

That isn't my experience. I know several serial entrepreneurs who are much nicer than most people (probably the majority of >2 successful company people I know

by rdl 13y ago

That isn't my experience. I know several serial entrepreneurs who are much nicer than most people (probably the majority of >2 successful company people I know are "nice"). Most of the genuine assholes I know are unsuccessful, outside of a few horrible industries. Being an asshole isn't required to be successful. It's a nice think to think the world is "fair" like that, that anyone who is successful has to be an asshole (or that smart people are ugly, or that successful people are unhappy, or whatever), but it isn't true from experience. There are certain industries which are win/lose, corrupt, and generally horrible, but I don't think tech, especially startup venture-funded tech, is one of them. Would you want to join a startup for below-market-rate pay with high risk of failure and spend 100h/wk for a few months around people who are horrible?

wozniacki 13y ago
Being an asshole isn't required to be successful. It's a nice think to think the world is "fair" like that, that anyone who is successful has to be an asshole (or that smart people are ugly, or that successful people are unhappy, or whatever), but it isn't true from experience. [I am only taking issue with this portion of your response and not the entire narrative] Would you care to elaborate on this? Would you list some striking success stories - besides the Hastings' and the Hoffmans' of the startup world - that have prominently animated our collective imagination and have generally informed us of what special kind of a person it takes to truly strike it big, in the big leagues of startup triumph? I ask genuinely and without a heightened degree of cynicism.
- rdl 13y ago
  Woz (yes, Jobs was an asshole, but they got to a pretty high level of success when Woz was in a key role, and probably could have gotten to the Apple II stage with Woz + anyone -- not Mac/iPhone/etc., but that's reasonable). Diane Greene, by all accounts, is a great person. VMware is pretty successful (ok, they're dicks now under EMC to some extent, but she also left long ago) Dr. Amar Bose (Bose audio, not Bose physics) was one of the most amazingly good people I've never encountered; Bose doesn't make the best audio equipment in the world, but it's a successful company. Stripe is pretty successful so far; the Collison brothers are widely regarded as decent people. YC itself has been quite successful; none of the YC partners are dicks. There are clearly counterexamples (Zynga alone makes up for a lot...), but I think it's pretty clear being an asshole isn't necessary to be successful. It might be somewhat correlated, or not, but I think there are a lot of other traits which are far more predictive of success or failure.
  - coffeemug 13y ago
    There are countless examples (your list is great). Here are some more people I instantly thought of. Gabe Newell. John Carmack. While he doesn't have the reputation of being a super-nice person, he certainly doesn't come off as being an arrogant dick. Marc Andreessen. Similarly to Carmack, doesn't necessarily have the reputation for being super-nice, but certainly isn't a dick. Mendel Rosenblum (Diane Greene's cofounder). Max Levchin. There are countless others, really. People in these positions typically have to make some really tough choices (should I fire Bob?) and you can't reach any significant level of success without leaving a trail of disgruntled people behind you. Being forced to make choices that leave some people unhappy isn't the same as being dick, though it might look that way from afar.
  - e40 13y ago
    I wouldn't call Woz a serially successful guy, though. Brilliant. Amazingly nice. Talented. But not serially successful in starting and making businesses valuable. It is one thing to do something great and be successful. It's another to do it over and over again. The former is much easier than the latter. Sometimes it's just being in the right place at the right time. Doing it over and over requires great skill and intelligence and drive. (I don't put myself anywhere near that category.)
    - rdl 13y ago
      I think a lot of that is wanting to do it again. A lot of people who make huge amounts of one startup are just not at a point in their lives where, now knowing the costs, they want to try again.
  - saryant 13y ago
    The Rackspace guys are some of the nicest people I know.
- brudgers 13y ago
  Bill Gates. Perhaps you have heard of him.
  - frandroid 13y ago
    Yo, I love the work that billg is doing with his foundation, but as a company CEO, he made plenty of dick moves, like trying to dilute Paul Allen out of his wealth, not to mention the whole Netscape-crushing kerfuffle that led to an anti-trust lawsuit and the near-dismantlement of the company...
    - brudgers 13y ago
      Netscape's founders had a 4.2 billion dollar exit that closed higher...following a 2.3 billion dollar IPO. Between internal decisions and the culture infused from AOL, suicide is a more apt analogy than homicide at the hands of Gates. I''ll take a moment to point out that it was Silicon Valley companies [don't forget "look and feel" from Apple] that were focused on litigation rather than innovation just a few years ago. Anyway, few people who reach Gate's age have done nothing blameworthy. That's just the price of adulthood. As fo
    - rdl 13y ago
      He's made a turnaround perhaps greater than Rockefeller or Carnegie from probably being well over the line of ethical behavior in business, to an immense force for good in charity. It's pretty amazing. Warren Buffett, on the other hand, seems to have gotten rich through being basically fair but brilliant (and of course lucky, and hard working), and is making huge charitable contributions as well (both before pledging his wealth to the Gates Foundation and after).
GFischer 13y ago
I know both types of people, nice rich guys and what you would call "assholes". However, I'm qualifying "assholes" because the few I know are actually very, very charming... but are in fact sociopaths/exibit some sociopathic traits, like being extremely artful manipulators, using half truths and lies, etc. Examples: the CEO of a multinational company. As an example of his behaviour, much like Scott Thompson, he lies about his degree. He also skims off the company profits. I also know of a few enterpreneurs that are really nice if you meet them , but work their employees to death and then cheat them out of profits (I think it has been discussed to death here on HN) Just a few examples: http://news.yahoo.com/yahoo-ceo-not-alone-7-execs-busted-resume-160624891.html http://news.yahoo.com/yahoo-ceo-not-alone-7-execs-busted-res... http://news.yahoo.com/zynga-greedy-game-industry-scum-steals-employees-help-194233677.html http://news.yahoo.com/zynga-greedy-game-industry-scum-steals... BTW I agree with rdl, I believe sociopaths will be more common in large, established companies, than in startups. If you work in such dysfunctional environments (for example certain financial industry companies, or governments), yes, you'll end up believing that to be succesful it's required to be an "asshole".
e40 13y ago
Being an asshole isn't required to be successful. It's a nice think to think the world is "fair" like that, that anyone who is successful has to be an asshole (or that smart people are ugly, or that successful people are unhappy, or whatever), but it isn't true from experience. I think the conversation has changed. I never used the word "asshole" and didn't for a reason. I don't think Kkosla is an asshole, and I don't think anyone (at least, when I read the comments) was calling him one. Quite the opposite. It was a douchey move, but he's not an asshole. He is driven to win more than most people can imagine, and that plus his intelligence are two huge factors in his serial success. I'm glad you've had a better experience than I. I really am. I know my sample is small, but I'd done a lot of reading over the years. Steve Jobs, for example, fits my profile to a t, along with the people I've had direct contact with. (The group I'm talking about can be assholes, and I think Steve Jobs was one. It's not required, though.) Let me add an angle. I started a company almost 30 years ago. It's still going. We've been profitable almost every year, but not wildly so. If I were to give the name, most here would say it is not a successful company. I'm by no means rich. We have never missed a payroll in that 30 years. Not once. Yes, I've fired people. I've done layoffs. I've never done one thing that I can't live with at night when I go to sleep. None of my decisions keep me awake. However, I was presented with many, many forks in the road. One road (the one I took) was a "good" one. The other would have allowed me to profit, sometimes much more than the other decision. I've watched very successful people over the years and I came to realize that they often take that more profitable road. Because of the types of decisions we make, outsiders call us a "family" business. That is CEO-speak for we can't make the hard decisions needed to increase profits, often at the expense of the people that work for us. I've had long discussions with serially successful people, and their primary advice, stop being a family business, don't be friends with your employees and start squeezing everyone for productivity and profit. It's what potential investors and buyers want to see, they say. So, my sample is relatively small, but I've talked with lots of potential investors, VCs and just plain successful people, and I've definitely seen a real pattern.
- update 13y ago
  > One road (the one I took) was a "good" one. The other would have allowed me to profit, sometimes much more than the other decision. Wouldn't it have been more beneficial to society, in the long run, if you'd maximized profits by making those hard decisions? In the end, that is, right now, you would be a powerhouse instead of a "family business," which would allow you greater positive influence on humanity

by rdl 13y ago

wozniacki 13y ago

rdl 13y ago
Woz (yes, Jobs was an asshole, but they got to a pretty high level of success when Woz was in a key role, and probably could have gotten to the Apple II stage with Woz + anyone -- not Mac/iPhone/etc., but that's reasonable). Diane Greene, by all accounts, is a great person. VMware is pretty successful (ok, they're dicks now under EMC to some extent, but she also left long ago) Dr. Amar Bose (Bose audio, not Bose physics) was one of the most amazingly good people I've never encountered; Bose doesn't make the best audio equipment in the world, but it's a successful company. Stripe is pretty successful so far; the Collison brothers are widely regarded as decent people. YC itself has been quite successful; none of the YC partners are dicks. There are clearly counterexamples (Zynga alone makes up for a lot...), but I think it's pretty clear being an asshole isn't necessary to be successful. It might be somewhat correlated, or not, but I think there are a lot of other traits which are far more predictive of success or failure.
- coffeemug 13y ago
  There are countless examples (your list is great). Here are some more people I instantly thought of. Gabe Newell. John Carmack. While he doesn't have the reputation of being a super-nice person, he certainly doesn't come off as being an arrogant dick. Marc Andreessen. Similarly to Carmack, doesn't necessarily have the reputation for being super-nice, but certainly isn't a dick. Mendel Rosenblum (Diane Greene's cofounder). Max Levchin. There are countless others, really. People in these positions typically have to make some really tough choices (should I fire Bob?) and you can't reach any significant level of success without leaving a trail of disgruntled people behind you. Being forced to make choices that leave some people unhappy isn't the same as being dick, though it might look that way from afar.
- e40 13y ago
  I wouldn't call Woz a serially successful guy, though. Brilliant. Amazingly nice. Talented. But not serially successful in starting and making businesses valuable. It is one thing to do something great and be successful. It's another to do it over and over again. The former is much easier than the latter. Sometimes it's just being in the right place at the right time. Doing it over and over requires great skill and intelligence and drive. (I don't put myself anywhere near that category.)
  - rdl 13y ago
    I think a lot of that is wanting to do it again. A lot of people who make huge amounts of one startup are just not at a point in their lives where, now knowing the costs, they want to try again.
- saryant 13y ago
  The Rackspace guys are some of the nicest people I know.
brudgers 13y ago
Bill Gates. Perhaps you have heard of him.
- frandroid 13y ago
  Yo, I love the work that billg is doing with his foundation, but as a company CEO, he made plenty of dick moves, like trying to dilute Paul Allen out of his wealth, not to mention the whole Netscape-crushing kerfuffle that led to an anti-trust lawsuit and the near-dismantlement of the company...
  - brudgers 13y ago
    Netscape's founders had a 4.2 billion dollar exit that closed higher...following a 2.3 billion dollar IPO. Between internal decisions and the culture infused from AOL, suicide is a more apt analogy than homicide at the hands of Gates. I''ll take a moment to point out that it was Silicon Valley companies [don't forget "look and feel" from Apple] that were focused on litigation rather than innovation just a few years ago. Anyway, few people who reach Gate's age have done nothing blameworthy. That's just the price of adulthood. As fo
  - rdl 13y ago
    He's made a turnaround perhaps greater than Rockefeller or Carnegie from probably being well over the line of ethical behavior in business, to an immense force for good in charity. It's pretty amazing. Warren Buffett, on the other hand, seems to have gotten rich through being basically fair but brilliant (and of course lucky, and hard working), and is making huge charitable contributions as well (both before pledging his wealth to the Gates Foundation and after).

GFischer 13y ago

I know both types of people, nice rich guys and what you would call "assholes". However, I'm qualifying "assholes" because the few I know are actually very, very charming... but are in fact sociopaths/exibit some sociopathic traits, like being extremely artful manipulators, using half truths and lies, etc. Examples: the CEO of a multinational company. As an example of his behaviour, much like Scott Thompson, he lies about his degree. He also skims off the company profits. I also know of a few enterpreneurs that are really nice if you meet them , but work their employees to death and then cheat them out of profits (I think it has been discussed to death here on HN) Just a few examples: http://news.yahoo.com/yahoo-ceo-not-alone-7-execs-busted-resume-160624891.html http://news.yahoo.com/yahoo-ceo-not-alone-7-execs-busted-res... http://news.yahoo.com/zynga-greedy-game-industry-scum-steals-employees-help-194233677.html http://news.yahoo.com/zynga-greedy-game-industry-scum-steals... BTW I agree with rdl, I believe sociopaths will be more common in large, established companies, than in startups. If you work in such dysfunctional environments (for example certain financial industry companies, or governments), yes, you'll end up believing that to be succesful it's required to be an "asshole".

e40 13y ago

Being an asshole isn't required to be successful. It's a nice think to think the world is "fair" like that, that anyone who is successful has to be an asshole (or that smart people are ugly, or that successful people are unhappy, or whatever), but it isn't true from experience. I think the conversation has changed. I never used the word "asshole" and didn't for a reason. I don't think Kkosla is an asshole, and I don't think anyone (at least, when I read the comments) was calling him one. Quite the opposite. It was a douchey move, but he's not an asshole. He is driven to win more than most people can imagine, and that plus his intelligence are two huge factors in his serial success. I'm glad you've had a better experience than I. I really am. I know my sample is small, but I'd done a lot of reading over the years. Steve Jobs, for example, fits my profile to a t, along with the people I've had direct contact with. (The group I'm talking about can be assholes, and I think Steve Jobs was one. It's not required, though.) Let me add an angle. I started a company almost 30 years ago. It's still going. We've been profitable almost every year, but not wildly so. If I were to give the name, most here would say it is not a successful company. I'm by no means rich. We have never missed a payroll in that 30 years. Not once. Yes, I've fired people. I've done layoffs. I've never done one thing that I can't live with at night when I go to sleep. None of my decisions keep me awake. However, I was presented with many, many forks in the road. One road (the one I took) was a "good" one. The other would have allowed me to profit, sometimes much more than the other decision. I've watched very successful people over the years and I came to realize that they often take that more profitable road. Because of the types of decisions we make, outsiders call us a "family" business. That is CEO-speak for we can't make the hard decisions needed to increase profits, often at the expense of the people that work for us. I've had long discussions with serially successful people, and their primary advice, stop being a family business, don't be friends with your employees and start squeezing everyone for productivity and profit. It's what potential investors and buyers want to see, they say. So, my sample is relatively small, but I've talked with lots of potential investors, VCs and just plain successful people, and I've definitely seen a real pattern.

update 13y ago
> One road (the one I took) was a "good" one. The other would have allowed me to profit, sometimes much more than the other decision. Wouldn't it have been more beneficial to society, in the long run, if you'd maximized profits by making those hard decisions? In the end, that is, right now, you would be a powerhouse instead of a "family business," which would allow you greater positive influence on humanity