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most importantly, put time aside to spend dealing with the emotions that come up. don't bottle them up. they will be expressed in destructive ways when you leas

most importantly, put time aside to spend dealing with the emotions that come up. don't bottle them up. they will be expressed in destructive ways when you least expect it. Does this really happen? If you spend much time with military veterans, you notice that they have way more self-control than the average person, even though they've also been through more than the average person. Is this because the military attracts very emotionally controlled people, or because exercising such control strengthens it?

philwelch 17y ago
Anecdotal evidence here, but while they seem self-controlled--and are very disciplined--a lot of them also have unresolved anger issues.
- ryanwaggoner 17y ago
  So do lots of other people.
- byrneseyeview 17y ago
  unresolved anger issues. Is there any way to distinguish those from "Not being as psychologically damaged as I'd like."?
  - philwelch 17y ago
    You think I'd like anyone I care about to be psychologically damaged just for the sake of some damned theory you think I'm invested in? What kind of an asshole do you think I am? I'm not going to get into personal business in public, especially not under my real name. Suffice it to say that I've known someone very closely who probably could have dealt with his feelings better than repressing them. Of course, denial is a form of repression, so he'd probably agree with you that he wasn't that badly affected. And some people aren't badly affected by things (though personally, I've found that personal trauma in my life does tend to upset my emotional balance in unpredictable ways).
ismarc 17y ago
The emotional experiences while in the military force a different method of coping rather than just bottling everything up. It's more like the emotions are just pushed to the side and dealt with later. There's a large number of soldiers who bottle them up and snap. Most, however, end up pushing them to the side because the "now" is more important. Once the "now" is over, and others' lives aren't in your hands, you can take the time to deal with the emotions. It's been 5 years since I got out, but it's still the same. I can push them to the side, deal with the now, and deal with the emotions when it's not going to impact every day life. The longer you wait, the worse it is and longer it takes, and there's probably a point where you really will snap, but it's a decidedly longer threshold.
JimmyL 17y ago
I would guess - and I'm not a psychologist - that their training has a lot to do with it. A large part of the boot camp experience is about breaking down how new recruits think, and reforming that process into one that goes well with the military mission. They're also regularly evaluated on their mental state, and a large part of the culture is about being able to bottle up most "soft" emotions. So they're very well-trained about how to bury their emotions, and how to deal with the implications of that. Having said that, I think your comment glosses over the high rates of depression, divorce, alcoholism, and mental illness represented in the veteran community. It's all there - it's just often (especially in the last case) well-hidden, as a part of the military ethos. Everyone deals with emotions, even (and especially) military people. They're just much better-trained than you are about how to deal with/delay dealing with it.
- byrneseyeview 17y ago
  I would guess that it's not just the training. The idea of "trauma" causing someone problems later in life is a fairly modern one -- and whether it's a discovery or invention is an open question. the high rates of depression, divorce, alcoholism, and mental illness represented in the veteran community. Source? I'm thinking Korea and WWII; Vietnam is an outlier, because of the amount of cheap heroin.
TomOfTTB 17y ago
It's really neither The military makes no secret about "breaking down their recruits" and then "rebuilding them as soldiers" (to use their language). What that entails is using whatever means necessary to form a habit of discipline. Because when you're disclpined you do the simple things on auto pilot. Things like pay bills and clean your living space. If people in the military seem more emotionally controlled it's because they can marshal all their mental resources to deal with whatever emotional challenge comes their way. They don't have the added distractions of "did I pay the electric bill this month?" or "I have to do that thing at work that I've been procrastinating on" In other words, they have the same capacity as everyone else but they are trained to live a life that eliminates as many distractions as possible. Finally, for those who have already commented about military vets bottling stuff up and exploding I'd offer this insight. All the military's methods can do for a person is elminiate distractions so big problems can be dealt with. If a person still decides to ignore those problems the results will be disasterous just like they would be in any other person.
bootload 17y ago
"... Men may perceive women to be inferior when it comes to emotion. But like the second law of thermodynamics, all that built up emotion is going to leak out some time in the future. So in the long run, I think women have an edge over men dealing with emotion. But in the short term it is men who edge women out with self control. There is a downside here. Apply too much control and you might emotionally overheat and become brittle when you cool down leaving yourself open to cracking. Hard objects become brittle and crack under stress. ..." ~ http://seldomlogical.com/2009/04/21/getting-stuff-done-with-nothing http://seldomlogical.com/2009/04/21/getting-stuff-done-with-... [4] on Fear. Highly 'emotionally controlled people' crack, but not straight away. Maybe years down the track. So spending time with old mil-vets might be a different story.
Devilboy 17y ago
Yes it's not that simple. Even today some anger management therapists will suggest that you hit a pillow or something to let your anger out. This is actually really bad because it links those feelings to getting physically angry - you're conditioning yourself to respond to anger with physical outbursts. It's not at all clear that 'don't bottle them up' is generally good advice.
- philwelch 17y ago
  False dichotomy--there are other alternatives than lashing out physically or "bottling up" your feelings. "Bottling up" generally refers to going into denial and emotionally repressing yourself. Sometimes just sitting and thinking about something calmly helps. Sometimes distracting yourself, or creating distance can help. But pretending everything is okay doesn't seem to be a winning strategy.
  - Devilboy 17y ago
    Sometimes distracting yourself, or creating distance can help. That sounds like 'bottling up' to me though? I think we agree in principle, I just don't think 'don't bottle up your feelings' is the best way to describe these strategies.
scott_s 17y ago
Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder is also experienced by a high percentage of combat veterans.
gruseom 17y ago
Does this really happen? Does this count? Another soldier, Staff Sgt. Daniel Shannon, told CBS that his PTSD changed him completely. "I started smashing furniture, very rapidly; so I didn’t know what I was doing ‘til it happened. I’d get mad so fast, so angry fast, and just lash out." (http://www.thecommentfactory.com/irregular-army-the-prevalence-of-mental-illness-in-the-us-military-2217 http://www.thecommentfactory.com/irregular-army-the-prevalen...) It only takes a bit of googling to find all sorts of information on suicide, substance abuse, domestic violence, and so on, in the military. Here's a pretty compelling and sad story: http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2007/02/11/told_to_wait_a_marine_dies/ http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2007/02/11/told_t... The problem has gotten so bad that the US military has embarked on programs to try to destigmatize therapy and to convince soldiers to do something about suicidal mates. So yes, obviously this stuff really happens. Edit: as it happens, NPR led with a story tonight about violence and mental illness among veterans: http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=106789003 http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=1067890....
- byrneseyeview 17y ago
  I don't doubt that people flip out. I don't even doubt that thousands of people among the millions who served in the military have flipped out. What I'm wondering about is whether otherwise undamaged people who repress their emotions eventually go nuts, or whether people who control their emotions end up in control of their emotions. People who eat small portions generally don't suddenly devour a turkey. People who only have one drink a night one night a month don't suddenly become alcoholics. Self-control doesn't necessarily mean that a problem compounds; it can be the solution to a problem, instead.
  - gruseom 17y ago
    Unless I'm missing your point, the argument seems circular: if someone "flips out" then they must have been "damaged" in the first place. Aren't emotions part of being human? Long-term negation of one's being isn't likely to have zero consequences. I think a better analogy might be sex, repression of which certainly does mean that a problem compounds, at least for most people. But this discussion is possibly too abstract to be resolvable.

philwelch 17y ago

Anecdotal evidence here, but while they seem self-controlled--and are very disciplined--a lot of them also have unresolved anger issues.

ryanwaggoner 17y ago
So do lots of other people.
byrneseyeview 17y ago
unresolved anger issues. Is there any way to distinguish those from "Not being as psychologically damaged as I'd like."?
- philwelch 17y ago
  You think I'd like anyone I care about to be psychologically damaged just for the sake of some damned theory you think I'm invested in? What kind of an asshole do you think I am? I'm not going to get into personal business in public, especially not under my real name. Suffice it to say that I've known someone very closely who probably could have dealt with his feelings better than repressing them. Of course, denial is a form of repression, so he'd probably agree with you that he wasn't that badly affected. And some people aren't badly affected by things (though personally, I've found that personal trauma in my life does tend to upset my emotional balance in unpredictable ways).

ismarc 17y ago

The emotional experiences while in the military force a different method of coping rather than just bottling everything up. It's more like the emotions are just pushed to the side and dealt with later. There's a large number of soldiers who bottle them up and snap. Most, however, end up pushing them to the side because the "now" is more important. Once the "now" is over, and others' lives aren't in your hands, you can take the time to deal with the emotions. It's been 5 years since I got out, but it's still the same. I can push them to the side, deal with the now, and deal with the emotions when it's not going to impact every day life. The longer you wait, the worse it is and longer it takes, and there's probably a point where you really will snap, but it's a decidedly longer threshold.

JimmyL 17y ago

I would guess - and I'm not a psychologist - that their training has a lot to do with it. A large part of the boot camp experience is about breaking down how new recruits think, and reforming that process into one that goes well with the military mission. They're also regularly evaluated on their mental state, and a large part of the culture is about being able to bottle up most "soft" emotions. So they're very well-trained about how to bury their emotions, and how to deal with the implications of that. Having said that, I think your comment glosses over the high rates of depression, divorce, alcoholism, and mental illness represented in the veteran community. It's all there - it's just often (especially in the last case) well-hidden, as a part of the military ethos. Everyone deals with emotions, even (and especially) military people. They're just much better-trained than you are about how to deal with/delay dealing with it.

byrneseyeview 17y ago
I would guess that it's not just the training. The idea of "trauma" causing someone problems later in life is a fairly modern one -- and whether it's a discovery or invention is an open question. the high rates of depression, divorce, alcoholism, and mental illness represented in the veteran community. Source? I'm thinking Korea and WWII; Vietnam is an outlier, because of the amount of cheap heroin.

TomOfTTB 17y ago

It's really neither The military makes no secret about "breaking down their recruits" and then "rebuilding them as soldiers" (to use their language). What that entails is using whatever means necessary to form a habit of discipline. Because when you're disclpined you do the simple things on auto pilot. Things like pay bills and clean your living space. If people in the military seem more emotionally controlled it's because they can marshal all their mental resources to deal with whatever emotional challenge comes their way. They don't have the added distractions of "did I pay the electric bill this month?" or "I have to do that thing at work that I've been procrastinating on" In other words, they have the same capacity as everyone else but they are trained to live a life that eliminates as many distractions as possible. Finally, for those who have already commented about military vets bottling stuff up and exploding I'd offer this insight. All the military's methods can do for a person is elminiate distractions so big problems can be dealt with. If a person still decides to ignore those problems the results will be disasterous just like they would be in any other person.

bootload 17y ago

"... Men may perceive women to be inferior when it comes to emotion. But like the second law of thermodynamics, all that built up emotion is going to leak out some time in the future. So in the long run, I think women have an edge over men dealing with emotion. But in the short term it is men who edge women out with self control. There is a downside here. Apply too much control and you might emotionally overheat and become brittle when you cool down leaving yourself open to cracking. Hard objects become brittle and crack under stress. ..." ~ http://seldomlogical.com/2009/04/21/getting-stuff-done-with-nothing http://seldomlogical.com/2009/04/21/getting-stuff-done-with-... [4] on Fear. Highly 'emotionally controlled people' crack, but not straight away. Maybe years down the track. So spending time with old mil-vets might be a different story.

Devilboy 17y ago

Yes it's not that simple. Even today some anger management therapists will suggest that you hit a pillow or something to let your anger out. This is actually really bad because it links those feelings to getting physically angry - you're conditioning yourself to respond to anger with physical outbursts. It's not at all clear that 'don't bottle them up' is generally good advice.

philwelch 17y ago
False dichotomy--there are other alternatives than lashing out physically or "bottling up" your feelings. "Bottling up" generally refers to going into denial and emotionally repressing yourself. Sometimes just sitting and thinking about something calmly helps. Sometimes distracting yourself, or creating distance can help. But pretending everything is okay doesn't seem to be a winning strategy.
- Devilboy 17y ago
  Sometimes distracting yourself, or creating distance can help. That sounds like 'bottling up' to me though? I think we agree in principle, I just don't think 'don't bottle up your feelings' is the best way to describe these strategies.

scott_s 17y ago

Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder is also experienced by a high percentage of combat veterans.

gruseom 17y ago

Does this really happen? Does this count? Another soldier, Staff Sgt. Daniel Shannon, told CBS that his PTSD changed him completely. "I started smashing furniture, very rapidly; so I didn’t know what I was doing ‘til it happened. I’d get mad so fast, so angry fast, and just lash out." (http://www.thecommentfactory.com/irregular-army-the-prevalence-of-mental-illness-in-the-us-military-2217 http://www.thecommentfactory.com/irregular-army-the-prevalen...) It only takes a bit of googling to find all sorts of information on suicide, substance abuse, domestic violence, and so on, in the military. Here's a pretty compelling and sad story: http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2007/02/11/told_to_wait_a_marine_dies/ http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2007/02/11/told_t... The problem has gotten so bad that the US military has embarked on programs to try to destigmatize therapy and to convince soldiers to do something about suicidal mates. So yes, obviously this stuff really happens. Edit: as it happens, NPR led with a story tonight about violence and mental illness among veterans: http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=106789003 http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=1067890....

byrneseyeview 17y ago
I don't doubt that people flip out. I don't even doubt that thousands of people among the millions who served in the military have flipped out. What I'm wondering about is whether otherwise undamaged people who repress their emotions eventually go nuts, or whether people who control their emotions end up in control of their emotions. People who eat small portions generally don't suddenly devour a turkey. People who only have one drink a night one night a month don't suddenly become alcoholics. Self-control doesn't necessarily mean that a problem compounds; it can be the solution to a problem, instead.
- gruseom 17y ago
  Unless I'm missing your point, the argument seems circular: if someone "flips out" then they must have been "damaged" in the first place. Aren't emotions part of being human? Long-term negation of one's being isn't likely to have zero consequences. I think a better analogy might be sex, repression of which certainly does mean that a problem compounds, at least for most people. But this discussion is possibly too abstract to be resolvable.